Kelly Rigg (00:02.59)
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Big Home Ed conversations. So we are carrying on our conversations. We've done the history of schooling in general. Now we've done the UK school system and kind of our feelings on that. And now we're going to have a chat mostly with Ashley today about the US school system and also a little bit about Italy as well, just out of curiosity. So she's going to give us some insights into that and actually we're going to talk again about the...
the different kind of cultures that get built around school and the expectations on our children. Again, what we really feel needs to change and obviously why that has obviously led into us deciding to home educate our children as well. So as usual, I am Kelly and I'm here with Ashley.
Ashley Vanerio (00:49.023)
Hi.
Kelly Rigg (00:50.334)
and I forgot to do a funny story last time so I thought I'd give you one this time. So my poor son, so he has been getting to know some of the street kids which is great. Not just random kids on the street but the kids who live on our streets so that's a phrase for you. We're really lucky actually because we live in a little kind of cul -de -sac so we don't actually have a three -road on our road which is really great. So you can see there's very little traffic and they're able to get out there and play on their bikes and stuff.
Kelly Rigg (01:19.358)
being still being sensible, but they can go and play, which is really lovely. I love witnessing it, because it just reminds me of my childhood. We used to spend like hours, hours, hours, hours outside playing out the front, which is wonderful. So he's made some friends anyway, and they were having a really lovely time. It's so nice to watch him just having fun. And they decided to play hide and seek. And we've got a really cool garden that's over like four different levels. So it's a great hide and seek garden. And they were all having a brilliant time hiding around that.
and then he decided to just like throw in a curveball and he went and hid out the front and we've got this big black box by the front door for parcels and things to go into and he hid in there and they looked for him for a while but I think eventually they just thought maybe he just got into the loo or he'd done something else and they gave up and it was only a little bit later on that I kind of tweaked that.
Ashley Vanerio (02:08.936)
Hm you.
haha
Kelly Rigg (02:12.062)
seen him for a bit still and I was like I just called out to him and said are you still playing hide and seek? Like yeah we can't find Thomas there and I was like do you not think it might have been a good idea to come and say I can't find him like he could have gone missing like honestly guys and obviously gave him a clue as to where he was but the poor kid was literally crushed in the pitch black in this little black box by the front door for goodness knows it must have been like eight to ten minutes something like that so poor kid
Ashley Vanerio (02:22.655)
Right?
Ashley Vanerio (02:38.433)
gosh. Great spot though.
Kelly Rigg (02:41.726)
But no, they're just, they haven't found him So, my god love it, I really enjoy watching him have these relationships. It's so sweet. Let's say they're all, all the children he was playing with today go to school. We have actually, we've got the jackpot really. We had a family move in last year who lived just literally just up the road to a home education as well, had the same age kids. Which is like absolutely amazing. So yeah, it's been really lovely getting to know them as well. So he does have someone he can actually do that with a little bit during the week as well.
Ashley Vanerio (03:11.296)
That's always good.
Kelly Rigg (03:12.318)
But yeah, it's cute. But there you go. So that's my funny story for the day. So for now, I'm going to hand over to Ashley because she is the one who's going to tell us more about the US school system, I guess, today. And yeah, your thoughts around that. So again, the idea of these episodes is to give you guys some insight into the terminology we're using because there is obviously crossover in the words, like college, for example, that in the UK typically means sixth form college level, so 17, 18 year olds. And in the US means university, essentially. So she's going to give us the lowdown on them.
terms and then we get into obviously her feelings about it all afterwards. So I shall hand over to her.
Ashley Vanerio (03:48.674)
Thank you. Yeah, I guess I'll start with trying to think back to when we talked about the UK school system and just kind of starting off with like a little bit of a background. So the, the US school system, and I think right off the bat, this is going to differ from the UK is that it's done by a state level. So you, when you move from one state to another, you might have different,
age limits, age requirements, things like that. It's not, it's not countrywide. So typically most states require children to start school between five and eight years old. I think five is way more common and that's typically kindergarten. But I believe only 38 of the 50 states require kindergarten. So there are still other states that don't. And then within that,
requirement, what they offer, and I think we've talked about this before, is very different. So some states that require kindergarten that are required to provide a kindergarten, and maybe all 50 states are required to provide the kindergarten option, it just might not be a requirement to attend it. I think you typically see most children who go through the public or private education system.
are attending kindergarten and most likely even a preschool. But umm the kindergarten experience at the public level, the public school level might look something like a half day or a couple days a week, some are full day. So it does depend. And that might actually drive parents to choose a public school over a private school or vice versa if they're
you know, full -time, both full -time working, you might prefer your kids to be in a full -time kindergarten. Because if not, you're, you're having to find childcare on either side of that. So that, that definitely comes into play. And then when children are able to leave school is varies between 16 and 18 years old, depending again on the state. And what I thought.
Kelly Rigg (05:55.582)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (06:12.579)
as I was reading this, I thought it was really interesting is that even if you are able to leave school at 16, we still say like you drop out, like you're considered a high school dropout because you don't graduate with a degree. If you don't complete your high school education up until 18 and get your diploma, you don't get that.
option when it comes to working. So it's not like you're, I feel like in the UK, if you leave at 16, you're still leaving with something like you have some kind of achievement accomplished, right? Like you made it and that's okay. And it's probably still respectable to then go and maybe get some work somewhere or do a different form as things are changing now requiring up to 18, you know, a different form of education.
But in the States, if you drop out of school, you are then going to either not have your diploma, which will greatly limit the work you're able to acquire, or you have to sit for your GED. And that is basically a test that covers the high school requirements and gives you a diploma. And so you might see, like, this is going to be a total tangent, but a lot of like the prison systems often
offer like a GED pathway, you know, to help educate those to, you know, make use of that time that they're serving. So, and put them off when they exit the system, allow them to get better work experience, right? So that GED or your high school diploma is really important in the U .S. And even if you're allowed to leave, legally allowed, you don't have to continue with school at 16 or 17. If you don't,
you're, it's, it's a very negative connotation, like you dropped out. And that's like the term that, that people use is that drop out. And.
Kelly Rigg (08:14.43)
And you have to sit in your lounge to get your diploma or a GED. So GED is a test you say.
Ashley Vanerio (08:20.197)
Yeah, it's a test.
Kelly Rigg (09:46.43)
So do you have to sit an exam to get the high school diploma or do you tend to just, is it like an accumulation of grades and things?
Ashley Vanerio (09:55.11)
So if you go through your high school and you have passed and gotten grades for each class that you're taking, then that is you will get awarded your diploma, assuming you didn't fail every class, right? And even in some cases, if you fail like a core requirement, like usually it's language arts, the English class would be the thing that would hold you back. Or maybe some other, if you're shy, some credits for some reason.
then that would allow, they might allow you to like walk your graduation. So where you actually like walk in front of everyone and get your diploma at the end, like the big celebration that you see in all the movies, throw your caps in the year. they'll let you walk through that, but you will not actually get your diploma until you complete like a summer school program. And then in some cases you might fail and have to actually repeat a grade.
And that does happen. But if you dropped out, you could, then you can sit for your GED and you can do that. You know, this is something I don't know enough about personally, but I am under the impression that you can do that kind of at any time and be able to then.
Kelly Rigg (11:15.71)
much like CSEs in the UK at any time, like if you're 12 and you can do it, like then you can sit it when you're 12 or whatever, so yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (11:19.623)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (11:25.287)
Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is to sit for your GED and then like, let's say you decided at 15, like you had enough of high school, you didn't want to do formal schooling anymore for whatever reason. And you studied for your GED and then you passed it. And then you went to like apply to college. They wouldn't like, and I say that meaning the school, the four year school that you would program that you would enter after high school.
so university, I guess, equivalent. That's not what they're looking for, right? They're not looking for you to just get your GED and then go into their program. Now, maybe if it was like, we have two -year universities, I think those are probably more likely term to college. And they are offering like an associate's degree. And those are typically programs like,
furthering education programs that you can enter without having to apply for them. So where I lived, our town had a community college and that is where people would go if they didn't have the academic grades to get accepted into a four -year university. They would either just say, okay, I'm just going to go for my associate's degree and I'm going to go to this community college. It's typically way less expensive than a four -year institution.
And you can go there for two years, get your associate's degree. And even when I was in high school, I took some college classes there. And so they don't require an entrance exam because of the fact that they're just the community college. And so you can, you could go there with your GED, but you're not going to get into like a four year institution without a really good story behind it.
but.
Kelly Rigg (13:21.726)
unless you're like a massive overachiever I suppose and you want to like like be able to tap out of high school and go like excel and go higher quicker I suppose. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (13:25.96)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (13:30.984)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah.
So that's the kind of GED graduation component. And then with the like just general requirements of schooling, it's typically 180 days in school. And that basically equates to September until roughly sometime in June. But it will vary based on
Kelly Rigg (13:37.406)
Sorry.
Ashley Vanerio (14:04.745)
the school and the state. So there's flexibility around when that timing takes place. So for example, I have family in Texas and their school starts in early August and then they're done in May, like early to mid May. So, whereas like when I grew up on the East coast, we did not start school until like,
a couple days into September, it was always in September, and then we would leave in June. And then you basically have part of June, all of July and all of August as your summer break. So there's a pretty, pretty big difference from what we experience here. And Italy is the same. They always start in September, and they usually end depending on
Well, I say depending on like preschool and stuff, but yeah, the, the like elementary schools and higher are all going to end in early June. So early to mid June.
Kelly Rigg (15:12.282)
Yeah, so the summer break is mid -July, mid -late July until like the first week in September, so you get about six weeks off. Historically, the reason for schooling starting in September was because of farming rural communities. I know that obviously I imagine Texas being quite a hot state. I feel like I'm going to put my geography up there a little bit.
Ashley Vanerio (15:23.145)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (15:30.474)
Correct.
Ashley Vanerio (15:37.798)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (15:39.198)
I suspect maybe the summer kicks in a bit earlier than maybe some other areas. So maybe because it's so hot, maybe the season is slightly different. So maybe that's why. But I'm just curious. Obviously, I don't really know for certain, but I think that must be true.
Ashley Vanerio (15:54.314)
Yeah, so it definitely does. It definitely, the September to June was absolutely for farming. Agriculture was 100%. That was the reason for the start because obviously you knew all hands on deck over the summer. But the other driving factor has to do with whether or not your school has air conditioning. At least this was when we were younger. I don't know now, you know, it's been, maybe all schools have AC now, but.
Kelly Rigg (16:01.15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (16:06.622)
city.
Kelly Rigg (16:15.614)
Yeah, I'm wondering if you have any questions for me.
Ashley Vanerio (16:21.193)
So for example, in Texas, you absolutely have to have air conditioning in your schools. The kids would suffer. So I think because they do, their timing doesn't matter as much. So like, yeah, like we could never go back in August in New Jersey because it was just way too hot and the schools weren't equipped to handle that. And I even remember some September was going back and it's still being like you'd have that Indian summer and it was just brutal.
Kelly Rigg (16:32.062)
are able to keep cutting out.
Kelly Rigg (16:49.502)
I wouldn't be in this country, the summer is usually over by about August time. I'm being ironic. Sometimes it's alright, but for the most part our summer really is May, June, July. And yeah, like the sad tears of most children off on their summer holidays where it rains slowly throughout the whole of August. We can always hope that it's going to be better than that, but we can't promise it. But yeah, interesting anyway. So yeah, sorry we've gotten a bit off on tangent on this one, but yeah it's interesting.
Ashley Vanerio (16:54.857)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (17:00.073)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (17:07.69)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (17:12.906)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (17:16.702)
reasons for these things. Sometimes I think we have to remember as home educators that when we are thinking about our school year and considering when we should start and when we should finish or the rest of it, that truly the answer is whenever you like, whenever it's meant for you because the whole point of school starting when it did was because farms needed their kids on hand to help because they needed to bring in the harvest. So literally...
Ashley Vanerio (17:29.707)
Yep.
Kelly Rigg (17:41.022)
If you have no harvest to bring in, then please do not set an arbitrary line as to when your school year needs to begin. Like it doesn't actually matter.
Ashley Vanerio (17:43.563)
Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly. And I think like, the, the timing as well of like the breaks is very important here in the UK because it's consistent, relatively consistent across the whole country. But, we have in the States, I say we as it must still live there in the States, they, the breaks are all over the map. So I mean, my mom,
I remember they were trying to plan like a ski holiday and like, when we were still in the States and I had just one child and she was thinking like, okay, well in a couple of years, when we do this, like your daughter will be in this school district and then your brothers in Texas and your other ones in Colorado and their kids all have different breaks. And it's like, so either she has to run to condo. She wants to do a ski trip with all of us for three weeks and we pop in when it's our turn, you know, or, or you just don't do it. So.
Kelly Rigg (18:41.662)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (18:44.684)
and just wildly different starts to the school year and ends to the school year, depending on not just the state, but the district. So the individual place that you live within a state can, can vary as well. And so it does, it does create a bit of chaos, but you in some ways can avoid like, you know, that for example, Christmas and new years, everybody's off. So that's not the time you want to go to Disney world, right? But.
Kelly Rigg (18:49.95)
you
Ashley Vanerio (19:12.684)
You know, if you're going sometime in April, there's probably a spring break in there, but it's not every American's spring break. So, you know, battling quite the same crowds as you might be in the summer when, you know, typically July, everybody's off. So that's going to be a really busy time to do something. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (19:32.606)
for approximately six or seven weeks. Literally just do one more fun before the summer holidays begin, it's awful. Same with the weeks, so you said about the whole kind of secondary school experience, that when you're trying to get into colleges, that the extracurriculars in America are way more important. So actually, when we were first talking about it, you were kind of, I was thinking, this is great because kids have been encouraged to take on, I know you're running a radio channel or...
Ashley Vanerio (19:35.564)
Exactly. Exactly.
Ashley Vanerio (19:42.156)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (20:02.014)
volunteering at a dog shelter or going and getting a little part -time job or doing some entrepreneurial skills or helping your granny to do her shopping every week. Like you're doing things to get these extra points for your, what is it called, resume to go to, I'm trying to look for my American terms, like in here is a S or entrance exam. So like you're trying to obviously show them that you're a well -rounded individual, that you participate in your community, that you are doing amazing.
Ashley Vanerio (20:10.189)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (20:17.516)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (20:21.005)
I'm sorry.
Ashley Vanerio (20:29.357)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Rigg (20:30.27)
and initially my response to it was like, that's actually really great because at least they're out like participating and they're not being like literally just like just go to school and that's all you have to do like they've sort of given an opportunity to go and do interesting things but as you were really like as you pointed out it's not a like you do these things for actual fun like yes maybe but you're doing these things because if you don't have a well -rounded resume when you go to
Ashley Vanerio (20:52.716)
Right.
Kelly Rigg (20:59.038)
try and apply to a university, then you don't stand out. Like you can't get in because there's only so many places and you want to be the person who they look at it and go, wow, look at all of their achievements and all the things they've done. And I found that really sad that like, whereas it almost has the right legs in like encouraging them to go and participate, it actually has an...
an equally difficult outcome, which I guess is the reason why education gets debated so hard, right? Because it can be very hard to get right, but yeah, I mean, what else are your thoughts on that one? Because I know that it was quite an interesting conversation when we had it once.
Ashley Vanerio (21:34.67)
Yeah, exactly. So the, it is, it is interesting because if you think about like applying to Harvard, everyone applying to Harvard has the highest GPA of their, of their high school and they have the highest scores on their standardized testing. We also call it the SATs. And I think it stands for standardized achievement test, I believe. And.
It's the one exam in high school that is incredibly anxiety. You're gonna feel that basically from sophomore on. So we call our first year of high school, freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, and that's essentially ninth, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade. And those are, the SATs is like, you are gonna feel anxiety about it. You are going to be pressured to do well on it.
And if you are not a good test taker, which many children are not, it is not a good indicator of your academic success. However, it is, there are obviously pros to standardized testing, which is removing, one teacher might give an A, where another teacher gives a C for the same work. So you kind of have your own perspective as a teacher coming into play, as well as just maybe known and or unknown biases against a student. And,
So it does create a level playing field when you're looking at students applying from potentially 50 states across the country. But it's hard, right? Because it's one of those tests that are, my gosh, it's giving me heart palpitations just thinking about it now. And I took that long time ago. It's a lot of pressure, yeah. Because I don't think it's as important now as it was.
Kelly Rigg (23:18.206)
I'm not sure if it's for young people.
Ashley Vanerio (23:27.472)
When I went to school, so your SATs, like there were parameters that the universities would put down, like don't apply unless you have a certain GPA, like our average acceptance rates are of the applicants that we accept, their GPA falls in this range, right? Their SAT scores fall in this range. And if you're not within those two, then it's probably not the school for you, unless you have something else incredible, like,
they're recruiting you for their sports team or, it's an art school, so they don't care about your SATs, right? Maybe you're it's your, or it's a, you know, performing arts. So you're dancing or you're playing music or something, right? And so that's bad. Then that wouldn't matter, but obviously then there's different expectations that you're going to be expected to meet. But so applying to schools, the one exam.
that was stressed and it wasn't administered. Like the school doesn't administer it, although you can sometimes take it at your school. So it does depend on, again, this is just back to the state and the school district. But you typically might take it your sophomore year. And if you don't do well, you'll take it again your junior year and you were required to submit both results. So.
If you did okay the first time, then you took it again and you did worse, then that's like awful. But if you took it again and you improved, then that's better. But there's a cost to taking it and a lot of parents pay for test prep courses, huge.
Those are huge. And so, you know, when you think about children whose parents might not have the means to do that, you know, is it truly a fair judgment? I don't know. And I think that's probably a lot of the reason why now it's not as heavily important for applications. But yeah, the extracurricular, I'm sorry to get back to that original point, the extracurriculars are incredibly important because like I said, at Harvard, your SAT scores are going to be top, your grades are going to be top. So what's going to set you apart from the other applicants is going to be what else you did.
Ashley Vanerio (25:48.465)
in your essentially four years of school. And they don't, they don't care as much prior to that. So it's great if you were in the Girl Scouts when you were in, in primary school, like elementary school, but nobody, nobody cares about that now. They want to see what you did from like 14 on. And a lot of the things that they're looking for, yeah, are volunteer opportunities, or, you know, maybe you're really involved in your church or maybe you're, maybe you have to work, right?
maybe you do have to have a part -time job because your family needs that or you need that to save for a car or for college. And so being able to show that and maintain a good GPA is something obviously that's looked highly upon. Being able to show that you participated in clubs at the school. So whether that was like the theater or band or cheerleading or some of the sports that they offer.
Kelly Rigg (26:15.07)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (26:42.514)
So in the States, our sports are all done through the school. So you will typically stay after school to participate in whether you're doing track or football or soccer or field hockey, whatever it is, all of that happens after school. And so having that kind of like school spirit is something that they look for a lot. Yeah.
And so all of that does create a pressure, right? Because you start to think, okay, I have to do good. And like GPAs are obviously super important, but if you don't start to plan that your first year of high school and you're anticipating that you're going to be applying to college when you graduate, then you are already behind the ball. Like, you know, you're already...
too late, because if all of your activities on your college application are from your junior year, which is typically when you apply for a school, then you're not showing any kind of consistency. They know you're doing it just for the application. You know, it's like...
Kelly Rigg (27:49.342)
horrifyingly, you think these poor young people are literally like, they're working their butts off, they're trying to get great grades, they are trying to participate in a way that maybe makes sense for them, and like just because they haven't necessarily participated in a thing in school or whatever, like in a way that can be kind of documented or like, do you know what I mean? Like they may have hobbies and interests and other learning goals themselves or things that they're interested in that are completely
Ashley Vanerio (27:52.433)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (28:09.394)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (28:17.438)
what I would say like you'd almost consider them to be like almost irrelevant to their school career but actually so totally relevant to them and their future and their interests. But it's just it's again it's basically saying you must fit inside this box and you must make sure that you fill it. If you don't do well at that then like into the day like I know that in this country obviously you've got a significant number of children who are struggling with neurodiversity or
Ashley Vanerio (28:36.754)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (28:46.782)
with poor teaching going on and they haven't been given the right support or resources or whatever. And you're going to have children who are going through the school system in either country that are being failed by it and who are not being taught, like if they're a visual learner, they're not being taught that way. They're just being told, well, you just got to get on board with listening to it, I'm afraid. Like you're just gonna have to get over it. And it's like, yes, but it's just not sinking in. And that's not their fault. Like that's, again, it's inflexible. And I appreciate that.
Ashley Vanerio (29:00.403)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (29:06.578)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (29:17.054)
Schools, when they're being mandated and paid for by the government, have only ever got so much budget and time and energy and all the rest of it. And teachers are doing their best with what they've got and it's certainly again no dig at them. Obviously I'm sure that there definitely are teachers out there that are not doing a good enough job for sure and who aren't great to the kids and are expecting too much from them or are stuck in their ways thinking that it should be a certain way and aren't being flexible even with the opportunities they're given.
Ashley Vanerio (29:33.33)
And of course.
Kelly Rigg (29:44.542)
I do appreciate that not all teachers are good people, but that ultimately we are dealing with obviously teachers who care, are doing their best, but young people are not going to be... Not everyone is going to succeed in every given situation. And when you're going to school again, you can miss a week because you weren't well, and you've missed a vital bit of information. The amount of times I can remember going back to school after being off sick for a few days, and then have moved on.
Ashley Vanerio (30:13.235)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (30:14.622)
And you'd be like, sorry, I don't understand. Like, what are we doing? And they're like, well, you went here last week. We did this. And I'll be like, OK, well, can someone catch me up? But sometimes they didn't. Sometimes you just had to just try and figure it out. Catch up.
Ashley Vanerio (30:28.117)
we were, yeah, we were expected to borrow our, our, you know, friend's notes. That was it, you know, copy of the notes from your friend and, and study it. And if we ever had like siblings in the school system, they would usually bring our homework home for us. And you, you were not laying there just getting well. You were having to lay there and do your work or you would suffer.
on the flip side, yeah.
Kelly Rigg (30:57.15)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (31:00.277)
Yeah, it's definitely really hard. And the pressures can be really hard. Absolutely. There's high school years. And at the same time, you're just trying to figure out who you are and like your friends and all of that. While, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but there was a little bit more freedom, I think, in our in the high school approach. Now there are
Kelly Rigg (31:16.958)
between as well. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (31:28.981)
vocational programs that I know nothing about. There were very few kids in our school that did it, but I do remember that the bus, there was like a bus that would come usually around like lunchtime. So like halfway through the day. So the students that did go to a vocational school would have, they would need to take their main courses that were required. So physical education and language arts are required for all four years.
And then there was varying requirements around mathematics, sciences, social studies, but they kind of fall off. So by the time you're graduating your fourth year of high school, there's very few requirements that you have to fulfill before you could do like a vocational program. And so usually around lunchtime, those students would leave on their bus and I was always like, where are they going? And there was a negative connotation to it, like we were kind of talking about earlier.
in the last episode that like these kids that were going to do something more like with their hands, more of a trade was not as prestigious. It was not as kindly looked upon as those who were continuing on an academic course. And so that was, that was really a shame. And, and it's something I never questioned in the time at the time, you know, just that's how it was.
Kelly Rigg (32:56.51)
I think that segues have gone quite nearly to this idea of the messaging because actually when you are in a school system and you're surrounded by a school mentality you are receiving messages that cause you to go off into adult life with set feelings about certain things and I mean we're being taught to compare ourselves to constantly measure ourselves we're taught to compete with our neighbour that we're not supposed to collaborate.
Ashley Vanerio (33:00.469)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (33:15.221)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Rigg (33:23.678)
cheating, we're supposed to compete with them, we're supposed to be better than them and want to look down upon anybody who is not achieving those things. Then you've got the fact that you've got the hive mentality where you've got to fit in, you've got to look, be, act the way that everybody around you does otherwise you're not going to fit in, you're not going to make friends.
Ashley Vanerio (33:28.47)
Yeah, better than them. Yeah, absolutely.
Ashley Vanerio (33:47.638)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (33:48.158)
you've got the over testing, the fact that you're constantly being made to say measure yourself and to see where you're at and to like to figure out like from your own perspective, when you get a grade that is less than what you wanted it to be or whatever, then you judge yourself for that and you berate yourself for that because that voice has been internalised. The fact that we take somebody else's lead on our education that we
Ashley Vanerio (34:07.414)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (34:11.07)
that we are basically relying on someone to instruct us. So when we go in our life and we're confused or we don't know what to do, we don't necessarily always think for ourselves, like we don't trust ourselves to make a decision, we ask somebody else. And it's just all of these things, they're just these messages that we're surrounded by and immersed in completely. It's very difficult to grow up with different ones.
Ashley Vanerio (34:23.638)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (34:36.51)
and to have the opportunity to build your own mind and to decide actually how do you feel about this or how do you feel about that kind of person or that kind of behavior or like for example I was often told that I talk too much. Here I am, my podcast and my TikTok account and places I love to just talk because I like to talk.
Ashley Vanerio (34:52.214)
Mm -hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (34:57.291)
Well, that's good then now.
Kelly Rigg (35:02.27)
I always loved to talk and I always knew a lot about things. I'm one of those people who I just love to learn random new things. So I think you can remember being told like, nobody likes a smart ass. Don't, like, stop just like going on all the time. Like, let somebody else get a world in edgeways. Like, all of this kind of negative, like these behaviors are not accepted.
Ashley Vanerio (35:09.943)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Rigg (35:25.886)
that and amongst obviously millions of other things I'm sure, that slowly but surely made me feel like I had to apologise for who I was, that I had to stay small and quiet, that I couldn't be, like somehow I had like two conflicting things. People want to be smart and to go on to do amazing things, but don't rub it in anyone's faces. I just don't get it, like it's so confusing.
Ashley Vanerio (35:32.695)
Mm -hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (35:38.936)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (35:44.312)
Right.
Kelly Rigg (35:48.67)
And again, I always say to people, the perfect doesn't actually exist, but not so much because our idea of perfect doesn't exist. We can imagine what perfect might look like, but that actually every single individual, depending on the messaging they received, and some of this is very universal, but actually some of it is not. It will be depending on the friends you've had or your family or whatever, your cultural values maybe. Your idea of perfect is very different to what somebody else's idea of perfect might be.
So the idea of perfect never truly exists, but yet somehow we're all aiming for it. And when we apply it to education and obviously the opportunity for home educator kids to have that freedom to hopefully, like I always say, I try very hard to allow my children to experience alternative values and opinions to mine. Because that is one thing that I think is a good thing about school is that they get lots of different.
Ashley Vanerio (36:17.527)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (36:23.095)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (36:38.423)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (36:44.126)
viewpoints and opinions for maybe experiencing different teachers and people from different walks of life and all the rest of it. So we definitely try to recreate that element. But at the same time, trying to explain to them that they are allowed to have their own opinions, that they can actually form their own ideas and values, that they can take and pick and choose what makes sense for them.
from the people they experience and the things that they do, that they don't have to be a certain way to be liked and accepted. They can be themselves completely authentically and they will find their people. And this I think is something which we actually struggle to believe in in our modern society, that you can actually be yourself and that people will like you for it. But what's really ironic is that the more ourselves we are, typically...
Ashley Vanerio (37:04.632)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (37:29.502)
Like we look at someone who's confident and out there just being themselves and we love them for it. But then we start to do it ourselves. And this, this, all of this comes from school. That, that is, it's cultivated to create that culture, to make us feel like we're never quite good enough. And no matter whether you do all of your school and you get your diploma and you get your top grade GPA and you go off to college and you do amazing things.
Ashley Vanerio (37:35.289)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (37:41.848)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (37:59.486)
Most adults never feel good enough. We always feel like we should do something more. We haven't done that for our age.
Ashley Vanerio (38:03.706)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (38:07.481)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (38:11.148)
Yeah, that's true.
Kelly Rigg (38:11.806)
it starts a motion and I think that's ultimately one of the things I hate about it the most is that it creates this never -ending self -judgment and endless aims and goals.
Ashley Vanerio (38:24.342)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, even just talking about how you were saying, you know, doing, doing what you enjoy and, you know, kind of following that your own path there. It's one of those things. I remember a girl on my field hockey team who didn't enjoy it and hated being there. I mean, you just tell she didn't like it. And, we're like our third year in and we're just like, why, why are you?
even doing it, like you don't have to, you know? And she's like, now I have to for my college application, I have to. So then you have students that are doing things because they just need it for the application, they just need it for the resume.
Kelly Rigg (39:08.784)
What does it even mean? Like when you think these colleges want these people who have got all this well -rounded application, who have done all these things, and what they're receiving is someone who's burnt out, miserable, isn't following their own directed actual interests, have had to stick at something for several years to show that consistency when actually they really wish they could have changed direction but didn't feel they could. Like it means nothing then, does it? Like it's literally like, why push them to provide this stuff if actually...
Ashley Vanerio (39:15.45)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (39:22.554)
And.
Ashley Vanerio (39:30.075)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (39:37.246)
Ultimately, it doesn't actually end up meaning anything. What a waste of effort, what a waste of time and opportunity.
Ashley Vanerio (39:43.002)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (39:49.243)
Yeah. And the interesting thing too, that I think might be a little bit different than what the experience is like here in the UK, just because of the way that you have like the GCSEs and the A -levels is like in the U S right, you have kindergarten, then you have first through fifth grade, maybe sixth grade. And then you have, that's like your elementary school and then your middle school or intermediate school, depending is either sixth, seventh and eighth grade or seventh and eighth grade.
And then you go to high school and like where I lived growing up our elementary school in our town. And this is another thing that's really important is the school district that you live in. So you'll fight for a house in the right school district. So you can send your kids to a good public school versus having to live in a school district that doesn't maybe have a great reputation or, you know, scores from that, from the school district that's offered by the public system. And so then you have to send your kids to a private school. And so.
And...
Kelly Rigg (40:46.47)
The same thing happens here, people will fight to get into a certain area to get in the catchment zone of a school.
Ashley Vanerio (40:52.764)
Yeah. Okay. And so I know like, so for my elementary school, the town that we lived in when I was in kindergarten, first and second grade, I went to a public school for that reason, because my mom, she tells me a story where she like walked into the school and she was like, Nope. And like turned around and walked out. And I never really understood that because I was, I still don't understand it because that was a very fast impression.
Ashley Vanerio (41:40.252)
But for whatever reason, her first impression was that her kids were not going there. And so she threw someone she knew, found a way to get us into the private school. And it was all about kind of like who you knew and one of those situations. And it was a great school and I really enjoyed going there. In fact, we were talking earlier about like learning styles and I just, my second grade teacher there had such a fantastic.
approach where she really did kind of look to see like, are you a visual learner? Are you, you know, whatever, whatever you were and kind of catering in some way, shape or form to these different, different groups of children that she had in her class. And I still remember her today. She was just lovely. but then when we moved, we moved in, in my, between second and third grade. And then that was the school district that I stayed in for the rest of my schooling. So I was there for.
that the rest of elementary school and then middle school and high school. And I think the thing that does happen even from a social perspective, where you are in a school district like that, or probably in any school district, you have known these people since you were little. And so if you're new coming in, which I felt even at third grade, if you're new coming in, it is hard to break into the existing friend groups.
And so you have that, that was like elementary school. And then you go into middle school. And for us, there were four, four elementary schools in the town, in the district. And then they, fed into one middle school. So suddenly now there's four times there, you know, as many children as there were. And you're mixing and matching. And so you're going through this, this effort again of, you know, how do my old friends mesh with my new friends and who falls off. And so there's that whole dynamic.
And then from there, though, then you go into high school with the same set of people. And it's very much like. Kind of understood that once you're in a high school, it's very disruptive to change. So you'll spend those four years there with very little movement. You know, a job might take you away if your parents have to shift in that way. But for the most part, people, even adults, you really do try to keep their kids in the same high school.
Ashley Vanerio (44:05.054)
But then what then happens is you kind of are with this whole core set of people. And then you finally get to the top, right? You're the oldest in the school. You've done all the things. You're getting to college. And then suddenly you're right back at the bottom again, not knowing who you are and trying to figure all that out and what's important to you. And yeah, so it is, you know, the whole school system is just an interesting dynamic. It's a lot of, you know, kind of pushing outside of your comfort zone, obviously.
Kelly Rigg (44:18.59)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (44:34.366)
and pressuring you to make new friends and do all of that. And I think that there is definitely a benefit in that, but there's obviously a lot of stress and anxiety as well. So.
Kelly Rigg (44:46.174)
Especially if you had, for example, if you did have a bully or someone who you didn't like or didn't get along with in elementary school, you know you're going to be with them forever. I think it feels like forever when you're a kid, doesn't it? Like, this is never going to end. So that can be really tricky. But I think it's interesting and it's important to note, isn't it, that at the end of the day, like we both said, we went to school and actually we didn't hate school entirely as an experience.
Ashley Vanerio (44:51.054)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (44:55.614)
Forever. Yes. It does. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (45:12.734)
No.
Kelly Rigg (45:15.006)
And I think that this is what's quite interesting about it, isn't it? Because people often say to me, like, did you have a bad experience at school? Did you hate school? And the answer is actually no, I didn't hate it. But then I was academic and I enjoyed learning. I've always enjoyed learning new things. So when you don't know any different, and I think this is the truth of it really, I didn't know any different. I went into school at four, just like every other one, everybody else did, and I went through school. And so school is what I knew.
Ashley Vanerio (45:41.31)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Kelly Rigg (45:44.894)
And so it was fine. Like, yes, I got bullied sometimes. And yes, it wasn't always fun. And yes, it was stressful. And yes, I like was hallucinating. I was so stressed during my GCSEs Genuinely unwell. I had like a massive like, physical like skin reaction came out when I was doing my year six SATs. Like I was so stressed. Like, there's there's an awful lot of anxiety and stress that school taught me to feel on the regular. I just decided to push.
Ashley Vanerio (45:45.279)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (45:55.295)
I know.
Ashley Vanerio (46:05.503)
my gosh.
Ashley Vanerio (46:13.246)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (46:14.27)
to like just to get up and go again and so on reflection as an adult I can see how damaging a lot of the messaging and the experience probably was but at the time as I say it wasn't something I hated going to all the time sometimes for sure I had windows when I didn't want to go and I would have liked to not have to go but ultimately it wasn't all bad and that the teachers that I did have that were amazing were freaking fantastic they were just the best and
Ashley Vanerio (46:34.031)
yeah.
Kelly Rigg (46:44.254)
were fascinating and I did learn some interesting things but I think the truth of the matter is that as home educators we know that we're not detracting from experiences in the sense that our children still socialize with other children and they still learn everything that they could have and would have learned in school plus bazillions of other things that they decide to pick up on right like we know that actually the matter is that quite often we're covering an awful lot with them.
Ashley Vanerio (47:08.191)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (47:12.831)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Rigg (47:13.374)
And that truly school is, so the whole point of this series really was to help indicate as well that school is but one way of providing an education to children. And that ultimately it has its flaws, much like home education could also have its flaws if you weren't making an effort to get out and see people, if your child obviously.
Ashley Vanerio (47:25.376)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (47:36.734)
like socializing wise, obviously forced socializing when you've got a child who's maybe kind of autistic and doesn't actually enjoy it and finds it very stressful, like yeah, like you've got, they can choose your battles and decide what makes sense for you and your family for sure, because actually socializing in the sense of like just going to the park and playing isn't always what your child needs for socializing, they might like to do it online, they might like to do it whatever, going off on a tangent again now, but the point is that we...
Ashley Vanerio (47:58.624)
Right.
Kelly Rigg (48:04.19)
We get to meet our children's needs. We get to help them achieve what they need to achieve to do whatever they want to go do. But it gets to be far more on their terms, taught in a way which they get and they enjoy, on subjects that they actually have an interest in progressing and gives them a far wider scope of what their skills are, what their potential is.
Ashley Vanerio (48:17.472)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (48:28.926)
So that when they actually do, there's also no deadline, right? Like my children don't have to have sat their GCSEs by the age of 16 because the funding's running out. I mean, maybe it will be, maybe at that point I'll be like, the money's running out, kids, you're moving out in two years, get your education done, I'm done with you. Who knows, maybe we'll be to that point. But ultimately, there is no deadline. I don't care if my kids do their GCSEs at 16 or if they do them at 20. I don't care if they...
Ashley Vanerio (48:29.281)
Right.
Ashley Vanerio (48:33.408)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (48:38.689)
I mean...
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (48:56.542)
don't do GCSEs at all and they go and do vocational qualifications or go do some sort of degree or go and do some other kind of experience, whatever. As long as they pick a direction that allows them to be successful in whichever way they feel success matters to them. So whether that's in a relationship, whether that's traveling, whether that's going and getting a job, whether it's whatever, right? Like as long as they are satisfied.
Ashley Vanerio (49:00.929)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (49:23.678)
in whichever phase they're in, because I hope to God that they will understand they can pick and choose and change and at the age of 25 they can change career direction completely. I hope that they will know that just because they are not at the exact arbitrary line level of somebody else, it doesn't devalue them that they are not worth less, that they are not less capable or will have less potential. I just hope.
Ashley Vanerio (49:32.512)
Yes.
Kelly Rigg (49:52.254)
that they will have an understanding that they are individuals and that they have all of the potential in the world as much as anyone else. And hopefully that will bleed out into the way they treat people too and their acceptance of others and the way they'll build other people up and think the best of them and think that of their potential instead of literally just be competing with them and belittling them and feeling like they're less than them in some way. Let's just hope. I feel like that's hope.
Ashley Vanerio (50:00.514)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (50:19.746)
Yeah, just a much broader acceptance of differences and similarities, but really just kind of appreciating how everyone contributes what they're able to and what they're good at and what gives them joy and happiness. And yeah, I think that we can become quite critical of others really for no reason with zero basis of knowing them.
Kelly Rigg (50:31.87)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (50:48.706)
anything.
Kelly Rigg (50:49.662)
And it all comes from that idea of like to be competing with our fellow man, if you're fighting for the best college place, best job, like you are going to constantly be pushing other people down to get to the top, whether you mean to be or not. I think we definitely need to be teaching our kids not how to compete, but how to collaborate and how to work together better. So I think, I mean, wrapping this one up for now.
Ashley Vanerio (50:54.499)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (51:04.579)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (51:11.554)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (51:15.294)
Some of the conversations in this will come back around to you, I'm sure, in other ways. But I hope this one has been useful and I really hope that you guys listening are really thinking to yourself that this is, the idea with this is meant to be thought provoking, so we're hoping that it has been for you. Again, my name's Kelly, I am banish .home .ed .burnout on TikTok and...
Ashley Vanerio (51:18.755)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (51:36.798)
at Offroading Motherhood on Instagram and Ashley is homeschool .in .progress on Instagram as well so do come and find us, do come and follow us, obviously drop us a line, tell us what you thought, tell us what has come up for you as you're coming off the back of this and yeah just keep tuning in, we'll see you again next week, take care guys, bye!
Ashley Vanerio (51:58.883)
Bye.