Kelly (00:03.257)
Guys, welcome back to the big Home Ed conversations. I am so excited to be back for our second season with the lovely Ashley. I'm actually going to back from the US guys. We rescued her. We've got her back in our midst. Glad to have her. Say hello Ashley to someone who knows you there.
Ashley Vanerio (00:22.38)
Yeah, glad to be home and glad to be doing this again. So it's exciting.
Kelly (00:27.125)
Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it? I mean, she's in the midst of like a house moving, goodness knows what else. So we're being kind to her tonight. We're going to try and wrap this one up. It's not going to be a long one. But we're just wanting to kind of come back and obviously just say hello to everybody again. You guys know who we are, why this podcast exists. But we are going to talk as well about the fact that deregistrations are on the rise and obviously.
Ashley Vanerio (00:32.334)
you
Kelly (00:51.241)
society will be concerned about that but I certainly am not. I'm actually really excited to see that so many parents are trying to just sort of change the place a little bit and offer their children a little bit more freedom and their family more freedom and obviously meet their needs as well because I think so much of our school system seems to be hell bent on suppressing human needs and I think so many parents are actually waking up to the fact that that's not.
good and it doesn't do us any good. And so yeah, we've got some really great statistics for you guys to kind of dig into in a minute and let you know about kind of what's been going on and a bit of a chat about why we think this is actually happening and really exciting stuff. very, very brief, I'll promise a little bit of housekeeping to start you off with exciting things that we're working on. First and foremost is our home ed affiliate store. So we're kind of attaching it to the podcast.
And essentially if you are a home educating family and you run pretty much any business, obviously online really, so making any resources and offering any services and you'd like tutoring anything really, that you would love to add details of into our affiliate store. We are going to be obviously setting that up attached to the podcast. We're getting a lot of traffic now coming through to the podcast page on the website and
Essentially, we will want to do some shout outs. We're going to do some free shout outs on the podcast itself for any products that we've used and services we've tried and all the rest of it. so reach out basically is what I'm saying. Come and tell us what you do and we will make sure that we've got you listed on there. So it's all of our usual kind of social media links, etc. You can send that email to kelly at offroadingmotherhood .co .uk as well. But yeah, just reach out and let's know if that's something that you guys would like to get involved with.
But yeah, think that's pretty much it, think, from the housekeeping side of things. Obviously, we have various different bits and pieces that you guys can be getting involved with. Do come and register for the newsletter as well. We're to be sending out some brilliant resources this season, stuff that's kind of attaching to the individual episodes, which will help you to obviously go deeper, to listen to what we've got to say, but then obviously to go and do your own work and to make...
Kelly (03:11.745)
Make some changes, consider your values, consider how you want to parent, things you want to change, and actually start to make some really great impact into your day -to -day journey. So hopefully listening to us will kind of spark some thoughts and you can go away, use the resources we're going to be sending out on email to the people on our mailing list and letting them know how they can do something for themselves to kind of help them kind of really cement that thought and start to make it count. See? So that's...
for me in terms of boring stuff. It's a bit boring, hopefully. won't say it's it's exciting. But anyway, so we'll move on to actually something I wanted to talk about today. So Ashley is going to share her funny story with us this time because she's the one who's had the exciting summer off doing crazy stuff with their kids. I just had kids with a horrendous, normal, vongous sick bunk that wiped out nearly all of August, which completely ruined it for me.
Ashley Vanerio (03:40.12)
Mm
Ashley Vanerio (03:45.35)
Now it's exciting.
Ashley Vanerio (04:08.153)
no.
Kelly (04:11.628)
Yeah, so she's been having some fun, so I'll share with you the story that tickled me over the summer anyway.
Ashley Vanerio (04:18.286)
Yeah, so we were in the States most of the time at the beach because I have family in Florida and we were there. And the area that we're in is really well known for collecting shark's teeth. But they recently worked on the beaches, moving some sand around to make the beachy part a little bit more large.
a little bit larger, a little bit longer, so that when the tide comes in and out, you still have a lot of beach to be on. It's pretty interesting. It costs a lot of money. And in that process, they really took away all the shark's teeth. So whatever shuffling they did with the sand, we just were not finding them like we were in the past. But we did have a really interesting shark story, even though we didn't find
that many shark teeth this year. I think we only got two at the end and normally you get dozens. So we were early on in the trip in the water and it was just so lovely because this summer the water was so warm that even as a parent you could just walk right in. It was fantastic. And so was really excited to not be miserable in the water with my kids and cold and wanting to get out or any of that. I was actually able to really enjoy that time. And so it was just me with my three girls
And we were there playing. I was obviously hyper -focused on them because of the fact that it was just me and I didn't want any of them to have any incidents where I couldn't reach them or something like that, or I missed one of their heads going under or whatever. And I wasn't really looking around. I wasn't scanning the horizon. And suddenly a lifeguard came up behind me and was like,
We just wanna let you know that there is a shark in the water. And I was like, what? And I look and sure enough, you see the fin going around. And I was like, okay, well, we'll get out. And she was like, yeah, you don't have to, like, it's not, it's up to you, but I just wanna let you know because he's probably in a feeding frenzy. Like those are literally the words she used, feeding frenzy. I was like, no, we'll get out. So we get out of the water.
Ashley Vanerio (06:43.318)
and we're walking back up to our stuff and there's this elderly couple there and the man is like, you really wanted to swim with the sharks, didn't you? And I'm thinking, and he's like laughing. And I'm like, okay, this is a funny story because no one got hurt, but where were you five minutes ago to be like, excuse me, ma 'am, like, would you like to get your children out of the water because there's a shark swimming around instead of laughing at me? Help me. my gosh, so.
Kelly (07:09.985)
It's like people these days don't like to interfere, they? So they're like, just like, you're going for it. They're thinking, she must know.
Ashley Vanerio (07:13.134)
I go, she's just living on the edge, like checking off that bucket list item. And I was just the rest of the summer constantly scanning. So I would watch the kids do a little scan, watch the kids do a little scan. And people probably thought I was, I don't even know what, like looking for something or kind of crazy looking when there's nothing there, I don't know. But I'm like, okay, so now we know. And it was so interesting as well because
Kelly (07:41.24)
soon.
Ashley Vanerio (07:42.794)
the lifeguards aren't on the beach, they're only over by the pool. So they had to have been notified by someone on the beach that there was a shark sighting and then come from the pool over to the beach to let those of us know that didn't, we're apparently wearing blinders, that the sharks were in the water. And I'm thinking, why weren't those people just telling us? Like, why would you go? I was just ridiculous. So yeah.
Kelly (08:09.203)
I don't It's just crazy, right? Like, just like come and actually say, no, I spotted a shark there. Good Lord.
Ashley Vanerio (08:17.708)
Yeah. So and then we watched it for quite some time and then I was like, okay, I'm going to go get my camera because like I'll my go get my phone and we'll take a picture. Of course, the second I turned around to go up to get my phone and bring it back, the shark was gone. So classic. Yes. Yes.
Kelly (08:31.817)
it was. You've got the memory that's very cool. Even though the photos is not terrifying but it's really cool for them to get to see swimming around the water like what great opportunity for them to see something like that close so cool.
Ashley Vanerio (08:36.712)
Vivid.
Ashley Vanerio (08:42.188)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. was definitely a memorable moment of the trip.
Kelly (08:52.973)
much more exciting than the Nora Barber's but never mind. so yeah, so there you go. So we've had a fun summer. So that's a good recap for us. that's kind of a gist of what we've been up to. Anyway, so we think we're talking about the fact that obviously quite a lot people have been out. Some of the world is freaking out and some of the world is really excited about the fact that so many parents are choosing to de -register their kids and have done this September.
and would have done last year. in the UK, the home education sort of rise in numbers, so the deregistration numbers was around about 50 ,000, which is just amazing. And it's basically a real massive indication to me that we've got a lot of families who are asking questions. But ultimately, that was the biggest increase the UK has seen since the COVID years. So...
Back when obviously lots of people were pulling out because of health and needing to isolate and all the rest of it. And maybe we're even seeing that their kids were quite stressed being in school around Covid. Because obviously there's an awful lot of constant hand washing and anxiety and wearing masks. And obviously for some children that would have been really, really anxiety provoking. So I know that a lot of families kind of felt the need to pull them out.
for those reasons back during that time. But ultimately, much like myself, I I noticed during lockdown, I had a three and a half year old and a baby. So I was definitely pre the school era. But I had my eldest son, essentially had been going to a nursery environment. And I noticed immediately during lockdown, how much calmer, happier.
more engaged he was, was eating better, sleeping better, he was learning more, was chattier, he had loads more to say, he had so much more confidence in himself, he was just infinitely better regulated. And that had a massive knock on effect to our family life and his education. Like I really noticed that both of our kind of our creativity was spiked, we were like way more relaxed in our day to day. And I think what's really fascinating for me is I don't think I'd ever really
Kelly (11:14.455)
heard anything about home education until then. And we see back at that point, you kind of heard about, obviously, the homeschooling, as it was referred to in this country during that time when a lot of kids were doing school work that had been kind of assigned by the school. And parents were like desperately trying to hold down a full time job, whilst getting three kids to sit on laptops at the dining room table, help with their classes and their homework stuff.
everyone was going out of their minds and that absolutely is not what home education in itself, like elective home education looks like at all. But parents obviously were just experiencing that. Yeah, it's so frustrating isn't it? It really is.
Ashley Vanerio (11:47.798)
one of my biggest pet peeves.
Ashley Vanerio (11:53.804)
Yeah, everyone's like, I homeschooled. And I'm like, no, you did not. You had a horrible experience of being forced to do work with your children that you had no preparation for. And it was in like the absolute worst circumstances. And you were trying to navigate this. It's just, that was not homeschooling to me. That's not what we do.
Kelly (12:13.055)
No, no, it absolutely isn't. And I think whenever I talk to parents and they're like, no, I just, I just don't know if I can. Like, I think like COVID, like the homeschooling around COVID like nearly killed me. I'm just like, yeah, no, please don't compare it to that. Like that, that really was your child doing work that again, as we've talked about in previous episodes, and we'll probably talk about again, is not necessarily aligned with their interests, that you are kind of forcing them to sit down and do something.
Ashley Vanerio (12:28.013)
Right.
Kelly (12:40.579)
But I haven't even got the entertainment of doing it next to their best mate and like sharing notes and stuff during it. Like, at least they normally have that kind of social aspect whilst they're having to sit through these things, they can find their entertainment another way. But now they're just like being forced by you to sit there and focus and they don't want to do that. like, at the end of the day with home education, we don't tend to sit and put our kids under that kind of pressure. Not in any degree, kind of the same level anyway.
it is mostly kind of pretty relaxed and I think a lot of parents found that when they kind of like released the pressure a little bit we're just like do you know what like we're just not going to worry about it we're just going to try and get this done and if we can't we can't and we're just going to go to the park like go to the park we're just going to go for a nice decent walk together and they actually kind of realized that they could hover off the same things as was being asked by school and so maybe they'd be a list for example of loads of addition and then they would get that to one side a big worksheet of
sums and they play a board game and they'd like them to use two die so they had to cancel out the two numbers and basically did all the addition and then they just filled out the worksheets. They still done the same thing like I'm not making them sing, like that, like they're gonna kill me. And those are the people I guess who recognise that actually it doesn't have to look the same way.
Ashley Vanerio (13:54.35)
Hilarious. Yep. Yep.
Kelly (14:07.917)
and that they can still have the same incomes. And those are the people who I think have kind of gone on to become home educators probably, because they probably recognise that their kids actually thrived under that kind of tutelage and started to do even better. But anyway, we digress a little bit. the numbers, now he's right, the numbers are just insane. And I think I'm even looking at the US numbers. And I mean,
Ashley Vanerio (14:19.554)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (14:26.19)
Sorry, that was my fault.
Kelly (14:35.105)
in the US is so, so huge anyway. But I think there's definitely a growing homeschooling over there. There's some maybe ultimate reasons. Like I feel like in the UK, most of the reasons seem to be focused on mental health and maybe just not being satisfied with the quality of the school. Like we're seeing schools not replacing teachers as they're leaving now. We're seeing them having to like get teachers to multi -subject.
Ashley Vanerio (14:43.153)
yeah.
Kelly (15:02.905)
and cover several different subjects in the school because they can't afford to replace teachers. Like we're seeing schools having issues with asbestos, having walls crumbling, like falling into massive disrepair. You've got kids without workbooks. You've got all of this stuff, right? So like there's an awful lot of under -resourced and underfunded and overtaxed teachers and quite difficult learning environments for all of those reasons and so many more.
Ashley Vanerio (15:13.742)
Right?
Ashley Vanerio (15:26.637)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly (15:32.023)
So there's lots of reasons here, but I think in the US there's starkly different reasons going on as well. But I think they're quite concerning, aren't they really?
Ashley Vanerio (15:39.02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I think, I mean, even just looking at the numbers at a broad level, when you look at 2023, the number of students being homeschooled had risen to 3 .62 million, which was a 45 % increase from the prior year. And then in 2024, it rose to 4 .3 million.
from that like 3 .7 in 2023. So around 600 ,000 new students started homeschooling in 2024. And it's so interesting because I think that when we look at COVID and what that event did to us globally, there were certainly so very many issues with things that went wrong, right? Like so many problems that arose from that. But there were some...
Kelly (16:17.197)
amazing.
Ashley Vanerio (16:37.72)
good things that came out of that. I think just the awareness of home educating is something that just really was just so broadly applied. Suddenly everyone was back at home and obviously there were horrible situations and funny memes and things that happen when suddenly their kids are on a Zoom call with their teacher now and they're like four years old, not four, that's too young, but let's say seven or eight. And then their mom is in the background.
coming out of the shower and they're blurring it on the Instagram and it's like, no one's used to this. It was so funny, like those funny things that come out of it. Or the kid just like getting up and walking away and like bringing their cat back and just like funny little things that came out of it and then horrible situations that happened. But broadly, it really did just shine the light on this option of home education, of homeschooling. And like you were saying, some parents
Kelly (17:09.271)
I get this.
Kelly (17:29.849)
Yes.
Ashley Vanerio (17:34.616)
quickly realized that with just a little tweak, they could see dramatic improvements. You didn't have to strictly follow this sit at your desk for eight hours and then work on homework up in your room for a further three hours. And so I think that that is certainly some of the reason that we're seeing such an increase in numbers year over years, because there is this continued
Kelly (17:50.914)
Mm
Ashley Vanerio (18:02.094)
conversation around homeschooling that really just had that like fire lit under it in COVID times. But the other reasons that we're seeing homeschooling in like the more recent years, 2023, 2024, are around a lot of different areas, still the continued health concerns. So, you know, wanting to make sure that families are still cautious, even now we're kind of seeing COVID coming back a little bit, although obviously without all the
regulations and restrictions around it. But certainly flexibility, being able to customize that education for your kids based on their interests. Largely, there is dissatisfaction with their traditional schools. So all the reasons you were mentioning too, I would also even add to that the social stuff like bullying and peer pressure and just wanting to kind of protect your kids a little bit from those environments. And then the other like
Kelly (18:34.83)
Yeah.
Kelly (18:43.843)
Yeah.
Kelly (18:53.74)
Hmm.
Kelly (18:59.426)
Absolutely.
Ashley Vanerio (19:00.984)
Yeah, the other really big one too is obviously health and safety, right? So we just saw this horrible then in the States. I was just learning from you about what went on here in the summer and just wanting to make sure that your kid is not having to go through. I I'm glad my kids don't have to have the gunman drills in addition to fire drills and earthquake drills.
Kelly (19:07.395)
Yep.
Kelly (19:30.168)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (19:31.084)
all of that. So it is definitely very scary and something I completely understand being a reason on that list why you might choose to homeschool it and adding factor even. And then the other stuff is around family bonding and religious and philosophical beliefs. So just wanting to really kind of excuse me, educational philosophies that your children are getting. So yeah, I mean, it's still going strong in the States. I don't think it's, you know.
Kelly (19:43.438)
Yeah.
Kelly (19:55.597)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (20:00.366)
I don't think we'll see a decline. We might level out, but I don't think we'll decline.
Kelly (20:04.491)
No, I think that's the thing. mean, what do you think about how home education truthfully is a human right? I if you just break it back down for a second and just imagine like a momma lion sending her baby lion cubs off to be educated by somebody else, like under somebody else's regime teaching them, we're just typically expecting that to be, to work within their community, their...
Ashley Vanerio (20:14.242)
Mm
Kelly (20:30.147)
that what they have to do as lions and all the rest of it, like, it's just crazy. the idea is bonkers. But as human beings, we seem to think that it's just completely impossible for a parent, society at large happens to think that most parents are not suitable as educators for their children, that their local community that's just being involved and present and taking part in their local community is not enough. And this kind of academic
hierarchy, this idea that children have to be academic to be worthwhile and valuable, and they have to achieve certain grades in order to be valuable, etc. is a really new concept. And is something which, as I say, schooling, as we discussed in the last season, has only been like it is now for 140 years. Not even that. And that ultimately literacy and the treatment of people who
have additional needs, send provisions, etc. diminished, like the quality of education actually faltered hugely. The judgment increased, the bullying increased, the marginalization increased, all these different things have actually been created, problems have been created by what we now term traditional schooling, but is not traditional at all. It's literally
really only the last 100 or so years, which is a very tiny little bit in human lifetimes, right? It's crazy. Like we've been around for thousands of years. And I think we have to really kind of be mindful that when we're choosing home education, we are actually choosing to allow ourselves to be a little bit more human, to just be ourselves, to be a creature that needs to meet its needs, that needs to expand its own horizons and do its own thing.
as actually is seen fit by its community and by the demands of the world that we live in as it stands right now. And I think that so many families are now starting to recognise that actually with the age of information, as we kind of came into the 2000s and we have the internet and we have so much information available. And obviously people have been educated since compulsory schooling, it's not even compulsory, but like it's termed as compulsory schooling, which still annoys me.
Kelly (22:54.135)
since that was kind of enacted. People have been educated all the way through, primarily rural communities, families, families with children who had additional needs and so on. But also an undercurrent of people just like you and I who don't have any specific reason to be home educating beyond just wanting to and actually seeing it as a really great option for our kids. So there was always people doing it and it just kind of got swept under the parking.
to some degree because there's no information. couldn't access that information. You didn't see beyond the people in your local community. You just wouldn't have seen who was be medicating. They just wouldn't have been as visible. Whereas nowadays we're able to be on Instagram and TikTok and having our blogs and our websites and our services and things that get out there and say to people, hey, look at us, there's an option. Like you can do this. We can help show you how. And that makes people start to recognise that actually
Okay, actually, maybe I can make this work. Because actually they've got access to the resources, they've got access to coaches and support mentors and things like that. They've got incredible books to read that have been written by just incredible people. And so it's just, I think it's brilliant that as people are starting to know better, they're starting to see and think and learn and kind of reclaim some the critical thinking that...
not just kind of following and doing as they're told and like this is just what happens and you send your kids to school and like yes okay they're probably going to get bullied, yes okay they're going to get stressed, yes okay they might not cope with exams but that's just the way it is like you just have to get them through it. Like parents are starting to recognise that actually no that's not necessarily how it has to be. We can look at it from a different perspective.
I think it's just really exciting.
Ashley Vanerio (24:45.122)
Yeah, it is. And I definitely recognize that I am privileged in this space because I have the ability to stay home with my children. And I know there are plenty of families out there who probably would love to embrace home education, but can't because their livelihood depends on two incomes. And they need that for their home and for their children and for the lifestyle that they're living in, or even just to be basically surviving, right? It's so expensive these days, no matter where you are.
Kelly (25:03.065)
Mm
Kelly (25:07.139)
Yeah.
Kelly (25:13.239)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (25:14.976)
It's beyond shocking. And so I completely respect that not everyone has the same opportunities. And I think that that is another just side that I definitely want to say. It's not ever that I'm against schooling or schools or like, I don't envision a world where everyone's homeschooling and schools don't exist. Like I recognize that is not going to happen.
Kelly (25:15.609)
Hmm.
Kelly (25:43.105)
It wouldn't suit everybody either, like from just a general, like what you enjoy and what you feel comfortable of and what you actually want to be doing with your day, like I totally respect it's not what everybody wants to do either. Schools need to be better. They need to be providing the actual service they're supposed to be providing for these families who want to use it and need to use it.
Ashley Vanerio (25:47.072)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Ashley Vanerio (25:56.468)
Yeah, absolutely. Exactly.
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (26:06.9)
Exactly. Yeah, it's hard. It's a hard spot to be in because I recognize there are a lot of families in that spot. And I'm very thankful that we currently have this opportunity to really dive deep into kind of customizing the school experience for our children and being able to follow their lead and still really have
a wonderful education provided to them. And it's interesting because you were kind of talking about when you started during COVID with your son and I was already homeschooling my oldest in that school year that COVID happened. And my middle was in a local preschool. And we love that because
It gave her the opportunity to really learn Italian because even though we lived in Italy, we spoke English in the home. And obviously everywhere else she heard Italian. Her grandparents only spoke Italian. So any family member of my husband's only spoke Italian, but it's nice to kind of speak it with other kids and kind of learn that play side to it. But the second that COVID happened and she was home and then, you know, I was already homeschooling.
my oldest and she was there and her younger sister was very little. And it was just like, this is actually wonderful. Like I'm seeing her, even though she's, you little, she's really taking to this as well. And so it really was a lovely way to kind of bring the whole family into it. And then after that, it just sort of snowballed. So, mean, our reasons, like you were saying, you know, we don't have a strong one, but our reason for homeschooling then was just very much out of
Kelly (27:39.801)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (28:01.534)
the want for me to have my girls really know English well, because we all know that it's difficult. The spelling, all of that can be very challenging to non -native English speakers and even to plenty English speakers, a of current English speakers, native tongue. But that was important to me. And so I said, OK, we're going to, once they get to first grade or year two here in England, we'll start home educating.
Kelly (28:15.737)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (28:31.266)
I just kind of realized with my second, like, no, I don't have to wait. Like, we can do this now. And she just never went back. And now my reasons have blossomed into a lot of other areas, as I've also grown in my understanding of the educational system and the challenges that it faces. I taught in a school, so I also have that personal experience as a teacher dealing with parents and children and the, you know.
Kelly (28:35.715)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (28:45.817)
Hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (29:00.202)
overarching kind of governmental bodies over the school and all of that. it definitely, teachers have a hard job. It's got to get better. I hope it gets better.
Kelly (29:09.283)
Yeah, yeah, it really does. And I think, unfortunately, at the moment, I know one of the biggest reasons why so many parents will be de -registering right now is because the government lie on why parents are letting their kids have their mental health days, why they are letting them take time out of school and aren't as hot on making sure they're actually getting attendance, et cetera, is because they are...
they're obviously really conscious that their kids need to be treated as human beings and that they need to be able to be enjoying their education and that education, like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. And so you really need to make education palatable to young people. But the government's line on it right now is that parents are failing their kids if they them take those days, that they are literally causing them to have a less successful future.
Ashley Vanerio (29:53.485)
Right.
Kelly (30:07.161)
As such, they've cracked down even harder on attendance and they're doubling the fines this year to the point where if a family takes their kid out for three unauthorised absences over three years, they're taken to court. They're quite literally going to be potentially putting on your criminal record. And to be opting in to a service, right, at the end of the day, school is an opt -in service provided by the government that you can utilise if you want to. And essentially they are
Ashley Vanerio (30:25.058)
videos.
Ashley Vanerio (30:32.27)
Yeah.
Kelly (30:37.177)
putting such huge power, like, over families. They are actually dictating when they can go on holiday, when they can take breaks, whether it's very clear if their child has illness, illnesses and appointments, like, quite literally, they get punished for attendance sometimes and, like, banned from going to the school dance at the end of the year or whatever, like, like end of year celebrations if their attendance isn't 100%. So if a child has had a load of days off because of
illness and they've had to keep going to hospital appointments or something that counts and they literally won't let them go to them like the Christmas dance or whatever like it's shocking and parents are really starting to think, you know what I'm in it? Like you're supposed to be providing an amazing education, one that makes my kids really successful that I can trust that when I put them in your care they'll be safe, happy, cared about and that they're going to be inspired to do an amazing
job one day to do something really cool to go out there in the world feeling confident and capable and happy and instead all you're interested in is physically just getting them in and like keeping them in and like poor teachers are literally being stuck with as I said before no resources like very difficult environments to be working in anyway very little support and like further training and stuff if they ask for it they'll rarely get it
Ashley Vanerio (31:53.048)
Yeah.
Kelly (32:00.693)
I think it's just really sad that, as I it's really exciting that parents are asking the question, they're actually sitting back and going, wait, hang on. Like, no, this is not on me to just force them to come in. This is on you to provide a better service. And that's up to our government, it's up to them to get on with it and to do that work. Because as you said, it's not. It's not parents choosing schools. The problem is...
the schools themselves not having the money and the resources to be able to provide a really great education and also thinking outside the box a little bit, like coming at it from a different perspective, coming up with a new idea, a new way of doing things, reducing testing and exams, et cetera, et cetera. There's so many things that if they sat down with an amazing bank of holistic educators, people who actually had ideas and cared about children's welfare and
prioritised their interests and actually said, okay, if you could redesign schools, what would you do differently? I mean, they're literally hemorrhaging teachers. And now we've got quite a lot of families decided that actually, you know what, we don't want to play a part in this either. And it's quite, I just think it's exciting. I think it's exciting that parents are asking the questions and that they're seeing what's going on with the age of information we've got.
Ashley Vanerio (33:20.941)
Yeah.
Kelly (33:28.739)
This stuff which has been swept under the carpet for so many generations where this information just wouldn't have been available, like you just wouldn't have known what was going on behind the scenes. People know now, they're seeing and they're talking to each other. And that is huge and it really helps because that communication allows us to make better choices for ourselves and to ensure that our needs of him and our kids are needs of being met.
Ashley Vanerio (33:39.533)
Yeah.
Kelly (33:55.799)
And yeah, ultimately that they're given better opportunities because of it, because parents know how to support them better.
Ashley Vanerio (34:02.69)
Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting, even just going back for a second to the absenteeism. It's not that way in the US, at least not in many places. I don't want to say there isn't any place because maybe there isn't. I certainly don't know all the schools. But I've not heard of a family being fined and certainly not at a countrywide level.
if you miss X number of days of school and definitely not going to court after three or probably even 10 misses. But I question the motive behind that because I'm not quite sure. I have to imagine that the goal is to say, if your child's in school, they're going to learn more and perform better. So we're enforcing this to ensure that they have a good education. But I don't actually have
recall or have ever been, I've never read anything that says that absenteeism is directly related to performance. In fact, aside from like massive absenteeism, like chronic absenteeism in those cases, I think we talked about this before, where a student is caring for an ill family member or something where they're physically not capable of getting to school unless they're
Kelly (35:10.179)
Nice.
Ashley Vanerio (35:28.014)
parent who is not around ever, it can't drive them. Something very outrageous and not common is the only time I've seen that linked to performance and kind of academic success. And so if your child is ill, and I remember occasionally seeing like, if they don't have a fever, you can send them to school, kind of like the advertisements here. And I'm thinking, well,
Kelly (35:33.091)
Yeah.
Mm
Yeah.
Kelly (35:44.22)
Mm Yeah.
Kelly (35:56.662)
Yeah
Ashley Vanerio (35:58.616)
can be very sick personally and not have a fever and I would not go to work. And I certainly am not going to force my child to endure a school day if they have a pounding headache and are miserable. And like, I think that's my right as a mom to decide. And now don't get me wrong. I'm sure there are some parents out there who are abusing the system or aren't caring if their kid is missing class, but those are not
Kelly (36:04.172)
No.
Ashley Vanerio (36:26.732)
Again, it's not common. It's an outlier. Like that is not the majority of the people. So to set such a blanket standard for such an interesting
Kelly (36:29.686)
No.
Kelly (36:34.595)
Hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (36:37.592)
thing, like missing a day of school because you're sick or you have an orthodontist appointment. It just seems really arbitrary. I'm just not quite sure that was thought through.
Kelly (36:42.233)
Yeah.
Kelly (36:50.979)
I think that's the thing, I think you're right, it's looking at the motives and I think number one is potentially money making. It's been really simple, obviously if you're fining parents hundreds of pounds, like clearly, I mean that money's not going to the school, is it? That's going to the local authorities, so goodness knows what they'll do with it. But it's really quite shocking. But yeah, think essentially if you're saying to families that they are going to get fined if their kids don't have great attendance, then it almost makes it seem like, okay, so.
Ashley Vanerio (36:58.936)
Yeah. I'm not...
Kelly (37:20.909)
Parents are being told that their children's, I don't know, most job in essence is to be in school. that, I'm trying to think of how to put this, it's almost like there's some sort of value attached to it. So obviously if that means that they won't be able to go on and get great grades or that they won't get good results on their GCSEs at the end of it, that ultimately, like,
I'm not explaining this at all. Well, I had a thought that ran through my head as you were speaking a minute ago, and it's kind of escaped me, but it's value basically, that your children have a value level and that you are preventing them from being able to achieve that value. And that value is owed to the government almost like if parents are being fined for their kids to not be there, I don't know, like what are you trying to do?
Ashley Vanerio (37:58.605)
Yeah.
Kelly (38:18.527)
their costs back. it's, I don't know, there's something weird about it. Like I'm really not explaining this very well. I thought it got to be clearly later and I'll want to read my book and read all of this bit. Yeah, it's weird. Like it's just a weird kind of concept that parents aren't allowed to make a decision about their like, to actually just, again, human rights. Do you agree to be able to participate in something when you want to? Like if I did a job,
Ashley Vanerio (38:21.568)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, I see what you're saying, though. It's...
Kelly (38:48.289)
And yes, okay, you do get your pay dock sometimes, like you don't always get paid for your sick leave or whatever. And if you have loads and loads of episodes of like not being there, then a job can decide to actually terminate your employment, et cetera. Like, of course these things happen.
But ultimately that's employment, that's different. Like school is something you're opting into, it's a service, you're just using it or you're not. And if a child is not able to be there or you as a family want to use it from flexibility and whatever, get that obviously it creates extra work for the teachers, sometimes it to catch up students who haven't been in or whatever, like it would be a bit of an utter mess if you had literally everyone could just be in and out whenever they felt like it. Like I do appreciate that would make it quite tricky, but...
I don't know, it just feels a bit silly that variants are kind of being put under this much pressure.
Ashley Vanerio (39:39.918)
Well, especially because largely parents are appreciative of school. We recognize the value of an education. We recognize that attendance is important to learn the lesson of the day so you can keep up with the coursework and the class and progress, right? I don't think, I mean, my mom certainly wasn't like, yeah, I school for a month. Like that was never, like think, I'd say. So it just seems, you know, sort of.
Kelly (40:00.973)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (40:10.102)
Yeah, I just don't get it. guess I don't get it. I mean, I understand, but I don't understand why they're doing it. In terms of the value to the child, like, it seems like the wrong place to focus if you're trying to increase.
Kelly (40:13.079)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (40:30.006)
as child success.
Kelly (40:32.299)
Yeah, I was going to say there's a lot more questions that need to be asked, not just enforcement. I think, I I chat to my kind of members of my family about this all the time, because we've got a member of my family who's in the police force and essentially we talk all the time about how enforcement and laying down the law and punishment, very, very little, it does very little for a
Ashley Vanerio (41:01.015)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly (41:01.591)
remedying behaviour, that actually you have to ask the questions about why it's happening. You have to get into their shoes, you have to think about what they've experienced and the wider, like we're talking about it today, literally, about obviously what happened with that awful stabbing in the summer, that we have to ask the questions about what has happened to that person? Like, why did they have that thought in their heads? Why are they feeling like that? Like, what has happened to them?
Ashley Vanerio (41:04.088)
Yes.
Kelly (41:30.177)
what treatment has become them, what bullying have they experienced, what whanivers have they been doing that helps them to get into the headspace of doing something like that. And I think that ultimately this is the biggest problem with society in general, to be perfectly frank, and it isn't just contained to school. I think that's why I care about it so much, is because it has a massive and important effect on how we behave as adults, how we treat each other. The fact that we have no patience and tolerance for each other, don't...
give each other grace, we don't ask the questions as to why somebody's not coping or why someone's crying a or why someone's ill a lot. Like we don't ask those questions, we just get mad at them for it. I think that it ultimately makes people feel like if they're not sick all the time then they're better than us, it's evilest, et cetera. So you know what I mean? if you don't have struggles with your mental health then you're somehow like better, stronger, whatever, like, and it's nonsense because now we realize that pretty much everyone.
Ashley Vanerio (42:08.844)
Right, exactly.
Kelly (42:25.925)
Everyone does have issues with their mental health at some point in their lifetime, whatever that looks like. And some will have it stronger than others or more commonly than others. And anyway, I just think it creates a really intolerant society and one that is just so hell bent on just making people get on with it instead of actually going, well, why isn't this working? Why are so many people not enjoying working in my company that I'm running?
Like, what is it that I'm doing? Like, what is it about the ethos? Like, what is it about the demands that we're placing on them? How could we make it more flexible? Like, make them feel more content, more relaxed? And I think, yeah, ultimately, I think that unless we really start to look at the actual fundamental attitudes in society around giving each other grace, respecting each other's boundaries, and knowing what actually inspires a person to do great things.
Like, I really don't know how we'll fix it, because so many have been raised in the school system and have been raised to kind of believe the same things and go through life thoroughly miserable, I think, creating it, thinking, it's just the way it is, like, you've just got to get with the program because that's how society expects you to behave, when actually what we need to be doing is changing that perspective and changing how society expects us to behave.
even if it's in small pockets, it grows. And I think that the point of why I really wanted to stress how exciting these number shifts are is to basically demonstrate to those of you who are new and coming into this space, that ultimately the number of home educators is huge, absolutely huge, that there are thousands of us in this country, like probably at least a few hundred thousand in the UK, and there are millions of them in America.
And so if you go online, you're going to find so much support. And ultimately, even if you may be feeling really like changed right now, like completely thrown into the walls, because your surroundings and the people who you're friends with currently and your parents and whoever else might be sitting there going, are you nuts? And I want you to just know that your change, your decision to support your family to
Kelly (44:48.365)
provide a better learning environment for your kids and for yourself potentially has this incredibly profound effect. Like one, maybe doesn't change much, but that one and every single person you're going to talk to and influence going through the course of your child's education and like all of it. And then what they're going to go do in the world will help to change more perspectives and help more people to realize that we don't.
just enough to say it is what it is and put up with it. Like we can make a change, whatever that looks like. And if you need to keep sending your kids to school, but don't believe in it, you can find other ways to support them with the messaging outside of it, et cetera, et cetera. There's no one size fits all. Like home education is not the only way to be doing that. There's so many other ways that you can be addressing this with your kids. So just, yeah, just be aware.
Ashley Vanerio (45:27.48)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (45:33.184)
Yes. Right.
Kelly (45:39.863)
be open minded and allow yourself to question everything that comes into your head where you go, it is what it is, question it. Is it really? Is that a fact? Or is there another way of looking at this? Because actually, there may very well be. So yeah, so I think unless there's anything else you wanted to add, I'll try and wrap it up there, bless you, because otherwise we'll go on about this forever, but it's clearly a very passionate subjective life. Round the tail.
Ashley Vanerio (46:06.252)
No, we're one off track here, but it definitely kind of speaks to the types of conversations you'll hear this season with us. hopefully it was interesting.
Kelly (46:17.185)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, really, really good. So thanks again, everybody, for listening. Excited if you are now back with us for a second season, come and tell us if you're now excitedly back listening again or whether you're new and whether you've just come across us. We're ranking pretty highly on our podcast now, which is very exciting. And we are currently a five star rated podcast. So do please give us more ratings. Make sure you are clicking on that button because it really means a lot and it obviously helps to get.
Ashley Vanerio (46:21.944)
Yeah.
Kelly (46:46.199)
more people to find our episodes as well. We're hoping for less technical glitches this time. We've got the hang of it now, haven't we? we're going to jank it now. It's going be fine. So anyway, we'll let you guys go for today, but please do keep tuning in and if want to us, come get on the newsletter mailing list and we'll be sending out a really great resource attached to this episode very shortly. Alright guys, you take care. Bye.
Ashley Vanerio (46:55.266)
Fingers crossed.
Ashley Vanerio (47:00.011)
I know.
Ashley Vanerio (47:14.51)
Bye.
