Kelly Rigg (00:02.082)
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Big Home Ed Conversations. My name is Kelly and as usual I'm here with Ashley.
And we are going to be talking to you guys today about basically difficult conversations. So when things get a little bit tricky and ultimately how important it is that we really don't keep approaching every conversation with anxiety, especially in the early stages when we're brand new, that we're not kind of constantly approaching kind of conversations with people about home education, feeling anxious, worrying about what they're going to say, trying to convince them what we're thinking.
about doing with our kids is right and the right choice, et cetera, and just kind of embracing our own kind of conviction, like really working on our own conviction. We thought this was a really good follow on from kind of critical thinking and forming our own opinions and starting to recognize that actually, so often when we approach these conversations, we're kind of looking for reassurance and for somebody else to tell us that we're making the right choice. And we really need to make sure that we're not approaching conversations most of the time, unless they're obviously very, very important to us.
looking for that reassurance that ultimately we want to be building that from within ourselves. So that's what we're going to talk about today. We thought we'd share our funny story of the week so I managed to really humiliate myself. It was just yesterday morning. So we, went for my flu jab and it was like a military operation. I've never seen anything like it. You literally walk through this like one way system through the...
Ashley Vanerio (01:22.23)
Thank
Kelly Rigg (01:35.384)
GP surgery and you literally like ducked into a room for a few seconds, gave me details, they stab you with a needle and you just walk out. It's the most efficient thing I've ever seen in my life. And I barely even had a chance to sit down when this lovely gentleman obviously prepared the injection and they took my details and he stuck it my arm. I just went, my God, I've got the smallest needle on the planet. I said I barely even felt that.
Kelly Rigg (02:03.372)
was just totally innocent I mean my goodness I was not intending with any anyway knowing that but obviously the gentleman blushed and I blushed and the nurse nearly fell off her chair! They were both just dying! were just like well at she didn't say a ruder word otherwise that really would have been in trouble and I was like can I go now? was humiliated myself can I just leave now please?
Ashley Vanerio (02:27.158)
You know, that was probably the highlight of the nurse's day though. Like, that's gotta be so boring. And she just was like, I needed that laugh, thank you.
Kelly Rigg (02:35.754)
literally as I walked away I could hear them both literally cackling in the room behind me I was just like my god I was like Kelly Riggs seriously can you walk into a room and not humiliate yourself just once it would be lovely. My social skills are still in progress anyway so good dear but anyway so talking of fun conversations I thought that was a good appropriate one anyway
Ashley Vanerio (02:54.446)
no, it's funny. That's so funny.
Kelly Rigg (03:03.374)
So yeah, so we were kind of talking about this before and we were saying that it's really hard because when I was first starting out as a home educator, I was coming at it from a place of being first generation home educator. My parents obviously hadn't considered it for me and my sister, we had had a difficult time as children. My sister especially didn't enjoy being at school. And so ultimately, me choosing to home educate, not only directly conflicted maybe with their
values and beliefs around education but also essentially I guess it just really stressed them out because I had had post-natal depression with both my children like I didn't have easy pregnancies I didn't have sort of an easy time of it as I was getting used to being a parent and they did have their concerns for me and my mental health and how I was going to cope with quite a high responsibility task really and ultimately
they were raising their concerns and we went running circles quite a few times. And I really felt like they kind of just kept sort thrusting the same two or three things at me and sort of saying that they had a right to their opinions and that I, that obviously I needed to kind of like reassure them basically. And in the end I had to set a really firm boundary and I had to say, look, enough, like I've answered you.
I think I have reassured you enough, like I've said what I needed to say. It's not my job to convince you, go do your own research, go figure it out. But ultimately, I'm making a choice for me and my family. I'm a grown woman, these are my kids. I'm making a choice, agree with it or don't. It's not up to you. And it did create some tension and it was a really hard time for us in our relationship because I really felt like for months after that that...
Ashley Vanerio (04:47.531)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (04:58.176)
all I ever wanted to do is convince them. just wanted them to believe what I believed and trust in what I trusted in. And that it did feel quite scary to, they weren't necessarily like after the initial kind of pushback when I kind of said, look, I'm setting a boundary here. Please do not cross this line again. Like that's enough. That they did obviously then get on board. They have been listening to me. They've been learning. They've been doing their own research and they have come around to it and they've obviously been able to see it working over the years. So it's not.
created a lasting issue, it definitely, there was worry in like welfare worries about myself, my kids, their future. And they obviously, to some degree, yes, they're my parents, they're directly related to my children, they care about them, they wanna make sure that we're all considering our options and being thorough in that. And to some degree, I can respect them having their opinions on something like that, of course I can.
But I did you come across this much in your kind of early days, Ashley? Did you have anybody kind of pushing back or worried about you making the decision?
Ashley Vanerio (06:03.146)
Yeah, definitely. And I think that what you're talking about with those family dynamics really come into play even with every aspect of parenting, right? So when you do something different than your parents, even if it's something like we do bedtime differently or we do whatever it is differently, then they start to question, why it worked for you, it worked for us, and almost...
It's very easy, I think, for them to take it as a personal insult, even if it's not meant that way at all, right? We're all just trying to do the best that we can. And every parenting generation is going to change and tweak things based off of their own experiences. And then, of course, the more information that we have available to us these days, obviously it's ever-changing, ever-growing. And so with the more information that we have, the different decisions we will make from the
Kelly Rigg (06:34.061)
Mm-hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (06:57.888)
people who raised us. And so I think that that piece of it definitely is tricky to navigate around because, you know, similarly with my parents, they just sort of were questioning, like, why would you ever do that? Right? Because it's not anything that they've ever personally researched. It's not anything they've ever questioned. Why would you not send your kids to school? Like, it's not even a question they've ever asked themselves.
Kelly Rigg (07:19.832)
Hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (07:25.918)
And then I think it's also the result of everything they've ever heard about homeschooling because whenever it's sensationalized, it's always portrayed in a negative way. There's not these amazing stories about homeschoolers out there, right? They don't say like, my gosh, homeschooling is amazing. Look at this famous scientist. It just doesn't happen that way. So there are plenty of famous scientists that are homeschooled, but that's not the part they advertise. And so I think that that kind of combination of this being something
Kelly Rigg (07:26.03)
Hmm.
Kelly Rigg (07:41.698)
Bye.
No. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (07:55.702)
totally out of the status quo. It's totally different and definitely a minority decision. Largely, I'm sure also because not everyone can homeschool. You might need two incomes. You might not have that capability or maybe you just don't want to. Maybe that is something for you that isn't going to work. That's totally fine.
Kelly Rigg (08:07.182)
Mm.
Kelly Rigg (08:14.52)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (08:20.126)
You know, when you have those conversations, like you were saying, it definitely can be tricky and you do have to set a boundary. And I think like, for me, I've certainly been approached, especially when I was living in Italy, homeschooling is so rare that you just don't, you might know one person that does it, or probably you don't know anyone that does it. Compared to the U S and the UK, that's obviously a very different situation here than I had when I was in Italy. And so.
Kelly Rigg (08:41.454)
Hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (08:49.77)
When someone learns, however it comes up, that we're home educating, because it's not the norm, because it's different, you instantly have to decide, is there questioning or response coming from a place of caring and curiosity? Or is it just judgment, right? Or like a knee-jerk reaction, like, that's interesting. Why are you doing that?
Kelly Rigg (09:10.69)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly Rigg (09:14.614)
Hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (09:17.85)
Maybe they don't even care. It's just like their knee-jerk reaction is to respond, right? Our trained response is to also respond. You kind of get locked into this conversation. I think the instant I meet someone who asks me about homeschool, after finding out that we homeschool, not because I'm walking around saying we are, I am instantly thinking about my plan for the conversation. How far am I going to take this? Or am I just going to try to shut it down?
Kelly Rigg (09:18.626)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (09:21.975)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (09:26.616)
You
Kelly Rigg (09:43.896)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (09:47.062)
as quickly as possible to avoid just a uncomfortable situation for everyone, right?
Kelly Rigg (09:47.224)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly Rigg (09:53.644)
Yeah, do you know what's really interesting in what you said then about kind like how far am I going to take this? what kind of level am I going to get to? Because I was laughing with someone yesterday about how you don't mean to become so completely entrenched in kind of understanding the potential government agenda behind schooling and obviously how difficult like you hear all the time.
obviously very much one sided side of things really in the home and community of families who are having a really hard time with schooling. Like experiences their children are having are not good and like stem from everything from school lunches being chronically underfunded and no chefs to people getting physically abused. And it means that we obviously hear an awful lot of the negative side of things. So it's very difficult not to kind of remain balanced and to
understand all the different kind of outlooks and so I do find myself, especially now that I'm so well read and care so much about this and I'm so passionate about it, I find it very hard to talk to parents who are very kind of, I don't know, one of them, maybe the child is having a hard time but they're not considering home education. I find it so difficult not to go into that conversation with a look like seriously, you need to really seriously be considering other options and this could be...
this could be what's going on and this could be what's going on and you really need to know what their inclusion policy is and blah blah blah. Like I get, like I have to really kind of rein myself in sometimes and go look, stop, like you're not like, your job isn't to go around converting everybody to home edge, that's not what we do. At the end of the day, if they come to me and they say, hey, I'm thinking about home educating my kids, can you tell me everything? Then of course, like they're gonna get like the full package, but I'm not going to like force it upon people who.
Ashley Vanerio (11:28.448)
Right?
Kelly Rigg (11:42.894)
genuinely believe in the school system, maybe the kids are doing absolutely fine, maybe this is just the way they want to be, maybe they know all this but they don't really want to get involved with it all, whatever. And it is really hard because especially when you're really passionate about something and an associate, someone with ADHD, I can't help myself but get very excited about stuff and I can sometimes get a bit carried away. So I think in the early days I had to really make sure that, well, a lot of the time I was doing the self work.
to keep supporting myself, building my own conviction, like reassuring myself that my decision was the right one, and stop kind of looking for that outside reassurance from people who don't do it. Like there's a great phrase somewhere that I saw once that was saying about how you wouldn't ask advice on how to climb Mount Everest from someone who's never left their sofa. Like you'd go and speak to someone who's done it and you'd learn from them.
Ashley Vanerio (12:40.959)
Right.
Kelly Rigg (12:42.414)
So don't, like if you're considering home education and you're feeling a bit stressed and a bit worried about it, then don't try and seek reassurance from someone who has sent their three kids to school and has never questioned it a day in their lives. Like they're not going to give you advice that is actually going to help you. You need to be speaking to someone who's done it and can reassure you that it's valid and viable and that you can do it.
and that you'll be capable and blah blah blah and I can actually give you the resources, point you in the right direction for advice, like all of those things. That ultimately we can't trust conversations with people who don't have a clue about it to make us feel better. Chances are actually they're really going to do the opposite. They're going to start to fill up our brains with things that make us actually feel a lot more anxious.
Ashley Vanerio (13:33.0)
Yeah, that's right. It's important to find your community, And to really, when you're looking for those reassurances or when you have questions about things, to be able to go to those who are either in it with you in that moment or have been through it, right? And there's so many amazing seasoned homeschoolers that you can reach out to. Even just here in our local community, there are plenty. And it is nice to be able to get that validation that
look, their kids are doing great. They've grown up home educated and they're doing wonderful. And then also just to be able to get ideas from them. And certainly then as we continue along the process, we become those more seasoned people. still have a ways to go here. It's only my fifth year.
Kelly Rigg (14:24.556)
Yeah, I guess it's a thing. I I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable about home education, but I know that I've got many, years ahead of me of various different challenges, including them getting older and obviously just parenting challenges, like all the different shifts and changes that are down the line. I'm terrified about it, but who knows? Anyway, let's not think about that right now. Sorry, just put my croaky throats on the way out. But yeah, I think...
Ashley Vanerio (14:39.424)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (14:52.512)
let's like really kind of consider like in these moments when you're talking to people what the actual kind of outcome is going to be. So I think what's really important for me nowadays is whenever I do approach a conversation with someone obviously now that I actually have got some years under my belt and I know what I'm talking about to some degree is to really kind of consider what the goal is and that when you are talking to
people about it. Say for example you've got an example when I was quite early on I was sat in the outside bit of my son's music lesson, it like a drop-off thing so the parents just sort of sat outside, kids went inside the building and some parents were kind of chatting about their various school experiences, one of their daughters wasn't doing brilliantly, she was quite stressed and anxious, we're talking like reception year one age, like very young and really not coping brilliantly with going into school and the parent was kind of
saying something along the lines of, she's just gonna have to toughen up because this is school and she's gonna have to go and that's the way it is. Like you haven't got any other choices. And I just captured them. I was just like, I'm not in the mood. I don't wanna get into this conversation. Like I can quite clearly see that they are very sternly like, this is the way education happens. And actually I found myself feeling quite anxious and quite stressed. And they turned the conversation to me just feeling like suddenly that...
They obviously hadn't been including me in the conversation and wanted to be polite, I guess, and asked me which school my son went to. And in that moment, I could feel every bit of my body being like, no, like, God, just go back to your own conversation. Like, it's fine. I don't want to be involved in this one, thanks. And so I was like, not from around here. We're all the short way. And essentially just tried to just deflect it off and they're like, which one? And I was just like.
Ashley Vanerio (16:33.814)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (16:48.366)
home educate. I was just like come on be brave just just say it we home educate and I was like I'm not ashamed of it of course but I was like I wasn't in the mood for the questions and I think in that moment I knew I could sense it I knew it was coming I was my spidey senses were teaching me well that this was not a conversation that I was going to particularly enjoy that I was about to be questioned on my sanity I suppose.
Ashley Vanerio (16:57.012)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (17:16.352)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (17:17.224)
I think I went through a phase of deflecting it all with like, yeah, no, I'm nuts. Like, don't worry about it. Like, this really kind of self-depreciating kind of like just deflecting it before they had a chance to say it, I guess. And I just, I think it's really sad actually that that was how I felt in those moments that really I was expecting that I was going to get some negativity and people being shocked and like kind of like the things that they say like, you're so brave.
and all that nonsense and it's just like, yeah, I know, like, it's not really brave is it to just spend a bit of extra time with your kids? And yeah, we're kind of, we're still responsible for their education at the end of the day, regardless of whether they're in school. But what I've kind of learned from those moments when she was quite forceful in her questioning after that, and I did feel a little bit affronted and it did earworm me a bit and I did come away from it feeling quite anxious and a little bit upset and...
Ashley Vanerio (17:53.664)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (17:58.261)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (18:12.214)
not particularly enjoying talking to them. had like the rest of the term of lessons to be sitting there with them to go through as well, which wasn't great. But what I've learnt from those moments is that when we enter into these conversations, we have got to be considering what the outcome or the goal is. So do we actually care about this person? Like, does their opinion matter? So obviously that if it's your
partner or if it's your parents or if it's someone who really does matter to you like a really close friend or somebody else who's involved with your children of course their opinions matter and so you are going to have to try and get through that conversation and do whatever you can to kind of stay calm reassure yourself like get all your research done get your ducks in a row and that's fine but when it comes to people like them who were not my friends they were not in my direct circle I saw them for
half an hour, once a week, and not forever either. Like, I didn't need to convince them. I didn't need to get them onside. I didn't need to spend ages pandering to that behaviour. What I should have done, and what I would have done if I could go back now and deal with the same thing, is I would have gone, hey, like, okay, you have your concerns, clearly, but I just want to reassure you that he's good.
Ashley Vanerio (19:11.542)
Right.
Kelly Rigg (19:36.152)
He's fine. We've made a conscious decision based on a passion. It's a passion based decision. But we're fine. Thank you for your concerns. Like, just get back to your conversation, please. Just leave me alone. Like, you don't need to, like, come at me. And I think obviously a bit more succinctly than that, I'm not finding the right words, but I definitely would find myself in that situation just backing away and just being like, okay, like, nevermind. Probably quite politely. Just like, you know what, that's...
Ashley Vanerio (19:40.863)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (20:03.822)
we don't need to get into this or like, sorry, I'm just doing something on my phone. Apologies, like I'll chat to you about it another time. And just like deflect it away. Just find a way to bat it off because ultimately we don't owe people like that who are strangers. They're not important. We don't have to teach them anything. We don't have to waste our time. And I think you always say that ultimately it's like, we're not here to educate everyone.
Ashley Vanerio (20:10.9)
Yeah, yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (20:30.174)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I've come to the realization after kind of blundering through conversations with strangers for the first couple of years, especially again in Italy because it's just so very different. Homeschooling is absolutely done there and it's just not as popular. So you really don't encounter it often. And so suddenly people really do have genuine curiosity, but other people don't. I did feel
Like I had to answer all those questions. And I do feel like it's, you know, going through the school system as we did growing up, you learn to just answer the question, you know, you don't, you feel rude if you don't, right? And so I finally came to that realization that, yeah, I've done so much research on this. I love it. It is my passion. I spend a ton of time doing it and I spend a ton of time researching it to make sure I'm doing it the way I want to do it. And so.
I could talk to you about this for hours, but I will say to someone, and I might even say it jokingly like that, like, my gosh, I could talk to you about homeschooling for hours. So what kind of information are you looking for here? Are you just genuinely curious and I'm happy to answer any questions? is this just something where you were just asking, but really you don't want to get into it because I don't want to waste your time? And I think that
Kelly Rigg (21:42.689)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (21:53.592)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (21:56.764)
Being able to push back even when things, because sometimes people do come pretty hot. They do come in and I'll say that to them, like, hey, we just met and you're coming in pretty hot here. I used to use that in some of my business as well when we would get some aggressive customers. Just to pause for a second and just be like, hey, I am a person here. can't, just like you go into any doctor's office now and
Kelly Rigg (22:02.178)
Hmm.
Kelly Rigg (22:06.286)
Mm.
Kelly Rigg (22:20.137)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (22:23.606)
This is something I only see in England. I don't see it in the States, but they have the signs up like don't abuse our staff. And if you do, you'll be sent out, which I think is really nice. And I actually have a story about a situation like that happening at my GP when I had first moved here. Not personally, but I witnessed it and it was shocking and the doctor came out and I'll tell you about it one time. But anyway, or maybe it'll be our funny story or not really funny, but somewhat funny story and a future podcast.
Kelly Rigg (22:32.846)
Hmm.
Kelly Rigg (22:45.355)
Hmm.
Kelly Rigg (22:49.07)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (22:52.618)
But yeah, and so I kind of feel that way. Like sometimes people just, they just run with something and they're not really actually considering that you're a person and they can't just ask you personal questions. And so, yeah.
Kelly Rigg (23:04.664)
And I think sometimes they're coming at it from a place of being so defensive too, right? Like they're basically, they themselves in themselves are going, well, what's wrong with school? Like I send my kids to school, like, but like, yeah, okay, they have a hard time sometimes, but don't they need to go to school? Like they're gonna need to get their education. Like how else are they gonna get their exams? How else are they gonna go on to university? And I think if we're dreadfully honest with ourselves, I mean, I certainly Googled all those questions myself before I chose to home educate. Like is home education legal?
Ashley Vanerio (23:08.563)
Yes! Yes.
Ashley Vanerio (23:14.814)
rest. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (23:34.498)
Like, will they still be able to sit their exams? Like, what are the outcomes for home educated kids? Can I have some examples, please, of home educated people who have done really well? Like, you do find yourself wanting that reassurance. And so ultimately when someone tells you that, especially if you're not actually aware, and what's really shocking is obviously how many people aren't aware that home education is even a choice. But obviously you do get these moments when they are going to feel defensive, like we're saying with our parents or with partners or whoever, that actually...
Ashley Vanerio (23:35.422)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (24:02.808)
people can sometimes be quite well subscribed to the school system. They might genuinely have had a good experience or maybe they believe it's a rite of passage or they feel like it's an important experience to kind of toughen us up for the real world or whatever. So they're going to have their opinions and they're also going to feel quite defensive potentially about their own beliefs. And so we have got to be really mindful that if our beliefs directly contradict their beliefs, that going into that conversation with the intention to
Ashley Vanerio (24:23.542)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (24:33.184)
thrust our beliefs upon them, no matter how well intentioned, is very likely to receive a defensive response. And so ultimately it's not entirely their fault if they do then get defensive, because ultimately we have started something potentially, like if it is us who started it, like we have said something which has directly contravened their beliefs. So it does create that natural conflict. And I think, I say, we were allowed to set boundaries and say, actually, I don't want to go there, actually, thanks, like, let's move on. And we're allowed to tell people if...
Ashley Vanerio (24:53.61)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (25:00.907)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (25:02.892)
if they're not being polite, but I think we can also, like I was at a street party once actually, and I had a couple of the neighbours just being like, you home educate, don't you? And one conversation was really lovely, relaxed, balanced, conversational, curious, and I was more than happy to educate and to answer questions. I was in the mood to, it was fine, I felt resourced, but another conversation I had was actually more pointed, and they were quite kind of like concerned, of welfare level concerned of like, but.
does that mean that your children aren't regularly being seen by teachers or like nobody's actually going to be checking up on them? Like surely like they should be being seen and I'm just like well they're here, they're right here. Like so you're seeing them, like I don't lock them in the basement, I promise they are seen by doctors, nurses, hospital staff when they fall off their bike. Like all these different things like they are being seen, are like being taken care of like you know what I mean?
Ashley Vanerio (25:42.742)
You're seeing them.
Kelly Rigg (26:00.61)
you're welcome to chat to them, you're welcome to reassure yourself. And genuinely, as much as it is like borderline offensive in those situations, I also find myself, yeah, I felt reasonably offended by it, but I was just like, okay, like I understand that you have clearly got a welfare concern here. And you know what, well done for being a good human, well done for caring about my kids, and well done for checking up on that and making sure that we are taking care of them because...
Ashley Vanerio (26:00.875)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (26:10.268)
Yeah, I would be offended.
Ashley Vanerio (26:21.973)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (26:27.654)
not enough of us do that, right? Not enough of us keep an eye on our neighbors and make sure that people are actually being good people. We should be caring about each other's kids, that's important. And so ultimately the conversation was fine, I diffused it, we moved on. But yeah, it is hard. Like you're dealing with people potentially sometimes that are just like, okay, you clearly are feeling defensive, you're feeling anxious about something yourself and you've triggered something in them by telling them what you do.
And I'll say these are rare, like really rare conversations. I want to stress that. this is, I'm literally talking like, I think maybe three, three conversations in four years that have been slightly more pointed than the average, but not hugely disrespectful, just a little bit kind of like, Ooh, I feel a little bit like I've got to defend myself here. And as you say, it's the people pleasing. It's that people pleasing nonsense that comes in then where we feel like we are, we owe them now a response and we don't truly. don't like we can just say, look,
Ashley Vanerio (26:56.842)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (27:17.237)
Yes!
Ashley Vanerio (27:21.31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (27:26.282)
here's a great website go and have a read like there's so much information on there it will help you to understand. So I really love that question kind of like do you actually want to know more or like are you just being polite because like I can talk to you about this forever so yeah let me know what level you want to get to.
Ashley Vanerio (27:39.894)
I don't want to trap you in that conversation. Exactly, exactly. And then just by laughing it off. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely one of those things where, you know, and you were kind of saying this before, when you're coming at it from two very different perspectives, if I'm talking to a family who has their five kids in the school system, I'm probably not going to have a productive conversation about home education. And even though they are asking me questions about it, they probably
Kelly Rigg (27:44.51)
watching them glaze over.
Ashley Vanerio (28:09.738)
don't, they ask them in a way where it's like how you were saying before, it's not like, my gosh, tell me more about that. It's like, I don't know how you do it. I could never do that. Well, that is not the tone of someone who wants to be swayed. You know, they, they want to be assured that they're doing the right thing. And so that's when, you know, if you're like, I could never spend that much time with my kids. I'm like, I'm sorry. I enjoy my kids. I mean, I had them. I like them. So, but that's okay. You do you. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (28:21.643)
No.
Kelly Rigg (28:32.334)
Hmm. Yeah. I was going to say it's an interesting one that actually, yeah, that phrase is really triggering for a lot of us, isn't it? It's quite interesting. I see this quite a lot in the like Facebook forums and stuff where people get a bit sort of upset with people kind of saying, gosh, I could never like spend that much time with my kids or like, my goodness, like no way, like I'd never be able to get everything done. And it's so interesting because I always find myself just saying, do you know what? Do you know what? It's great that you know your own limits.
Like if you really don't feel like actually having them home all the time would be good for your family and you genuinely feel like that actually, this is where it comes down to conscious educational choice in my opinion. If a family have made a conscious choice based on their children's welfare to have them in school, for them to be working, to do whatever it is that is necessary for all of them to maintain their mental health, their finances, their home life, whatever, great.
Ashley Vanerio (29:02.774)
100%. Yep.
Kelly Rigg (29:30.958)
but it is that really kind of cavalier, like I say, the issue we obviously strike with it is obviously the idea that people just like, God, I wouldn't want to spend this time with my kids. Like, yeah, okay, it's not the nicest thing to say directly to your children or in front of them, of course, but like, yeah. Yeah, I know. Or like they'll be sort of sitting there going, gosh, counting down the days until you're back in school, like to their faces. Like it is a bit like, ooh, jarring.
Ashley Vanerio (29:31.317)
Yes.
Ashley Vanerio (29:44.15)
Especially when they're there! Yes! People will say that in front of their own children. I'm like, okay.
Ashley Vanerio (29:54.45)
Yeah. Right.
Kelly Rigg (29:58.146)
But I understand, I always try and come at these things with compassion and understanding that obviously I don't know what they're walking through. Yeah, like don't know what they're walking through. I don't know what their life is like. I don't know what they're dealing with. And obviously I have said to my own children in the past, I am seriously considering like whether or not home ed is right for us right now. Like this is not really working. Like we are literally like.
Ashley Vanerio (30:02.545)
Yes. It is hard. Hey, it's hard. It's hard. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (30:23.918)
driving each other bonkers and you guys are just resisting everything I say and it's hard. And so sometimes we get into like a bit of fit with that too, right? So anyway, got a bit of a tangent now, but I think it's really important when we're thinking about starting a conversation with someone or we are finding ourselves in one that we really consider why it is that we are talking about it. Like if it's coming up naturally, fine. If you are, I I for a while was anxiously just chucking it in there just to kind of get it off my chest.
Ashley Vanerio (30:32.746)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (30:53.39)
just so I've said it and I could just move on. But we've got all these different reasons why we might be having these conversations. Like, I don't know, more important ones, for example, talking to our partners. This can be a really tricky moment because I think both me and you had issues in the beginnings with partners not necessarily being on board. And those are tricky conversations, my God. Like those are important and those are tricky.
Ashley Vanerio (30:54.954)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (31:10.729)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (31:16.94)
because ultimately if you are starting to really passionately believe that home education is right for your children and for you potentially in your kind of lifestyle, what you want to do and your partner's kind of like, I don't really know about this. Like, I'm not sure this is the right idea or maybe they were quite academic or maybe they believe in sort of more disciplined side of things or whatever, that these are really hard moments.
Ashley Vanerio (31:36.299)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (31:40.946)
Yeah. And I think for my husband, he did not enjoy school, so fair enough there. But it definitely was, again, something that you never questioned. So why would we not send our kids to school? What would be the reasoning behind that? And I think it also depends on how open that person is to research and information, because at the end of the day, you're still going against a societal norm.
You were going to become the only family on the block that homeschools and that kid is only seen at some certain sports or things on the weekend, but not necessarily at the bus stop. I mean, I you guys don't have bus stops the same way we did in the States, but yeah. So I think that can be just, it just feels uncomfortable to go against something that is so normal.
Kelly Rigg (32:16.515)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (32:37.43)
And I think he had a fear that our kids would be like the weird kids or that they would just be odd. And so part of that has been helped just by time and seeing over time all that they do and all the things that they're involved in and how much they're with other kids and having the experiences that all kids are having. And then I think the other part of it
Kelly Rigg (32:38.156)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (32:45.197)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (33:04.098)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (33:07.143)
is just sort of
saying, I think this gets back to the capability to home educate your kids and the want to, because I think for him, if he were to give up his job to home educate, he would end up presenting the kids, right? Because he would miss the enjoyment and fulfillment that he gets out of his job. And so I think that's something that he, at first, was just like, well, I don't want to do it, so why would you want to do it? And obviously,
Kelly Rigg (33:24.003)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (33:30.488)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (33:39.7)
that's something that each person has to kind of assess for themselves and then work through. And I think it's still something that he questions, but it is nice. One time we were out having just some drinks after work with some of his colleagues and one of the...
Kelly Rigg (33:44.899)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (34:02.368)
people there had said, my wife homeschooled both our kids and it was the best decision we ever made. And now, know, his kids in college and in the States and doing great. And so I think, you know, sometimes those little nuggets come through in unexpected ways. And I was just like, I'm so glad I was here to hear this. Like, I'm so glad that someone that he like knows and respects homeschooled their kids, you know, and now they're doing great and they're in college and like, you know, so.
Kelly Rigg (34:11.149)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (34:16.493)
Yes.
Kelly Rigg (34:20.215)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (34:30.128)
That just gives that reassurance. think that goes back to just the conversation of having that community to be able to look at and really see the successes that the group as a whole is tracking. Because if you just look at your immediate family, it can be hard because it's not a race, it's a marathon. Teaching your kid to read, it's not like the next day they're reading.
Kelly Rigg (34:38.06)
Yes.
Kelly Rigg (34:54.124)
Yeah.
Night.
Ashley Vanerio (34:59.326)
weeks and months through different stages. And so the fulfillment is slow. And it's nice to have the community to reach out to see that, yes, this does in fact happen. It's going to work.
Kelly Rigg (35:14.732)
Yeah, it's okay, yeah, you've got that kind of reassurance. I think that's the thing, it's a lot of the calm that I have now and the passion I have now is literally just built from the conviction that has taken time. is lots and lots of friendships, lots of witnessing, lots of reading, lots of tricky moments that we've overcome, lots of us figuring out how to better handle teaching our kids something or showing them something and having them.
Ashley Vanerio (35:31.712)
Yes.
Kelly Rigg (35:42.104)
thrive, it's watching them learn to read, it's all these moments when you kind of get that kind of like, my goodness, like it really doesn't have to look like school does it? Or like it really can be done, like you can trust your kids to pretty much learn this by themselves, like you don't necessarily need to be putting loads of hours sat with worksheets in front of them into it to make it work, like you just get these lovely moments that kind of build your conviction, they just help you to stand a little bit taller.
just relax your shoulders a little bit more, like you start to trust the process a little bit more and slowly but surely you're able to actually just like finally gonna go, yeah, okay. Like now, I guess I had a moment last year that really made me laugh where I had a lady at my son's football approach me, she happened to be a deputy head of quite a, I think it was a private school near us. And she was like horrified. I I was so educating.
Ashley Vanerio (36:14.944)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (36:37.806)
And it really made me laugh. It literally, it really took me by surprise. I wasn't expecting it. I hadn't had any kind of tricky altercations for a while. And she was so instantly quite adverse to the idea. And I couldn't help, I actually laughed. Like I actually laughed. couldn't, I guess it maybe just shocked me a little bit, but I was just, it amused me and I found myself being like, it's fine. Like, don't worry about it. Like, you don't agree with it? That's fine. Like, please just walk away. It's okay.
Ashley Vanerio (37:04.054)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (37:06.574)
Obviously I didn't say that, but I just found myself feeling quite amused and it didn't earworm me and I didn't come away from it feeling anxious and actually it just made me smile that actually I've done the work now, like I've spent the time with my kids, I've seen them thriving, I know that it's working, I know that it's valid, like it's all good, like it's fine and I think that that is just something which we don't necessarily have in our arsenal at the very beginning because we are just so brand new to it, especially if we are first generation home educators.
Ashley Vanerio (37:35.936)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (37:35.958)
So yeah, guess that the truth is in these moments is to just, I guess, to summarize is to take a deep breath, is to recognize as you're kind of approaching any conversation, I'm talking a lady in a supermarket, someone who's important to you, whatever, is to try and recognize firstly, are they important? Like, does it matter if they actually agree with, support this decision? Am I looking to try and get their reassurance or their permission? Or am I just...
wanting to tell them all about it because I'm excited or like what is the reason, what's your goal, what's the outcome you're actually going for and if it is conversion then you really need to consider how important that person is and whether or not it's appropriate because it could very well lead to it being defensive and tricky. Okay so you are you're definitely opening a can of worms potentially.
Ashley Vanerio (38:24.586)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (38:27.872)
And yeah, just recognize your own boundaries. Like recognize whether you've got the spoons. Like if you are sitting there thinking, actually, gosh, I have not got the energy for this conversation today, much like us in trying to record a podcast yesterday, Ashley. Who's just like, haven't got the energy for this today? Tried it anyway, nevermind. We did our best. But we have these moments we've got to recognize, have we got the energy for this conversation? If the answer is no, then don't do it now because.
Ashley Vanerio (38:42.432)
Close.
Kelly Rigg (38:54.262)
especially if it's important. Like if you're trying to have a big conversation with your partner and this is the moment, this is when you're hoping that you're going to be able to get him to agree or she and you're sitting there kind of having this conversation and you're not resourced and actually you're getting your hackles up easily, you're getting stressed, you're getting upset, maybe whatever. It's not productive, it's not going to feel good, it's just going to make everything feel rubbish and actually if you can really make sure that you are well resourced, you've done a bit of breathing, you've had something to eat, something to drink, you aren't tired.
Like do all the things that are necessary for you to feel like, okay, I can have this conversation. I'm feeling good about it. I've done my research. I've got my talking points. Like I'm ready to go. Like don't rush into these things and basically end up just stressing yourself out in the process that you are allowed to be really, really mindful and intentional about the conversations you have about home education. And as I say, just I think very much highlighted that if you
Ashley Vanerio (39:40.843)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (39:54.082)
When I have a positive conversation, you're much more likely to have it with someone who actually gets it and doesn't need convincing. So if you need reassurance, talk to somebody who's actually going to reassure you. And that's not to say that people who don't get it won't reassure you, because I'm sure a lot of them will be very positive and most of the people I speak to are. But do definitely be mindful of not putting yourself into situations too often.
Ashley Vanerio (40:01.802)
Yes.
Ashley Vanerio (40:15.094)
soon.
Kelly Rigg (40:21.278)
you're going to feel attacked because it's just going to make you feel stressed and anxious and there's no there's no point doing that to yourself unless you really have to I guess is all I would say on this matter I guess.
Ashley Vanerio (40:32.938)
Yeah, and I think that the only last thing I would add, which I know we've talked about is like, and I'm still working on this all the time, as you can tell, trying not to take what they might say personally, because it's usually not about you. It's probably their own defenses and their own just wanting to reassure themselves that what they're doing for their family is right. And it probably is, right? I mean, I think when I speak to people, they're
Kelly Rigg (40:45.998)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Ashley Vanerio (41:03.666)
usually very happy with the decisions that they're making and whether it's to home educate or not. And so I think that if someone comes at you and is sounding a bit defensive about it or just ask the questions in the way that is a bit negative, why would you ever want to do that? Then it's more about them and just to just, like you were saying, deflect or be like, yeah, hey, we're all just doing what's right for us. So that's okay. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (41:07.288)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (41:29.602)
Yeah, it's all cool. Yeah, it's like you don't have to want to do it. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (41:33.544)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's okay. I mean, I'm the only one in my family doing it, so I understand the other side as well. So yeah, just let it roll off your shoulders and finish your grocery shopping.
Kelly Rigg (41:46.582)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think definitely always, as you say, really respect the other person's opinions and beliefs. Like at the end of the day, they're as much entitled to theirs as we are to ours. And also just in those moments when we are potentially dealing with that kind of moment, as you are respecting it, you're thinking to yourself, okay, I hear what you've got to say, have that open listening, actively listen to what they've got to say too, like give it the respect that they're giving you.
and demonstrate that back to them and hopefully that will help to defuse a situation that might be getting a bit heated too because it allows you to obviously show them that you are respecting them, you are caring about them. But equally, if those opinions are kind of, as you say, beating you down, making you feel rubbish about it and actually starting to feel quite stressed or vulnerable in that situation, set a boundary and move on. Just find a way to deflect the conversation, move away. And I think that's the thing.
Ashley Vanerio (42:19.968)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (42:40.558)
These are not easy things to navigate sometimes and I'll I've put together a whole ebook on this so I will make sure that people are aware of that when I post about this episode because it's free, it's a free ebook thing that literally helps to walk you through some of these sort of tricky moments. So if you are finding yourself in them then there is that ebook that you can grab as well if this episode hasn't been enough to give you some ideas and pointers. But yeah, it's really important for us to...
Ashley Vanerio (42:50.068)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (43:07.714)
to really be considering this because sometimes we will find ourselves going around in circles or finding ourselves in this situation a lot and that can actually really destroy your confidence and start to make you feel like home-made isn't a good choice or starts to make you worry about things that you actually don't really need to be worrying about. So yeah, just definitely be very, very compassionate towards yourself as we always say and yeah, stop at the conversations if you feel it's necessary. dear, dear, yeah, so I think.
Ashley Vanerio (43:30.25)
Mm-hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (43:35.254)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (43:37.944)
What I wanted to say to you guys as well, just to kind of wrap this episode up, unless there was anything else you wanted to add Ashley, is that, are you happy at this point?
Ashley Vanerio (43:45.756)
Yeah, I think we've probably exhausted it. I know you and I always get chatting and then we look at the time and we're like, well, that was three hours.
Kelly Rigg (43:46.883)
Yeah.
haha
Kelly Rigg (43:53.326)
Yeah, I was going say I think we'll pause it on that conversation there for sure, we'll be back again with another one very soon. Just to let everybody know who is actively listening and we have had so many more of you actively listening this season which is so exciting. I think we've had something like got a couple hundred listens already just at the beginning of this season which is super exciting. So thank you so much for everybody who's coming and listening to us and sharing it and talking about it and all rest of it.
Ashley Vanerio (44:00.811)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (44:15.076)
Thank you.
Kelly Rigg (44:21.934)
But we have actually had something super exciting happen this week. So we are going to be interviewing Wendy Charles Warner or having a conversation with to be honest, Wendy from Education Otherwise on Wednesday. So we're to be recording a special guest episode for you guys that will be coming either next week or the week after. And essentially that is going to be all about, especially if you're new to home education, we're going to be talking about how important it is that you understand.
your rights, what you're entitled to, and also how to kind of positively work with your local authority as necessary and all the work that education otherwise is doing with the Department of Education and our local authorities to try and improve relations to do with home education. So kind of like what to do, what not to do. And we're also going to be talking about obviously the schools bill that Wendy so effectively
spearheaded the campaign to remove from parliament a couple of years ago with her petition which I think turned out to be the biggest ever hand-signed petition ever to be submitted to government from what I understand which is what an absolutely epic feat and obviously the fact that sadly obviously with Labour government we are looking at that register coming back around into government again where they are trying to push it through again so
Ashley Vanerio (45:30.612)
Yeah, amazing.
Kelly Rigg (45:44.27)
We are going to be having to gear up for another fight very soon and she's going to be talking to us bit about that as well. So very important episode and going to hopefully be really insightful and give us lots of really just great thoughts. So anyone who is fangirling like me at the idea of getting to interview is essentially a home-ed celebrity. Please do come and join us for that episode when we air it in a week or two.
Ashley Vanerio (46:03.904)
Hahaha.
Kelly Rigg (46:11.978)
and depending on how long that conversation goes on for, because we've got over as long as we wanna, like, fingers crossed we'll get a really good episode or two out of that one. Really, really excited to obviously chat to her. So do tune in for that and yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (46:21.017)
for sure. Yeah, just.
Yeah, just the wealth of knowledge that she has is just amazing to be able to kind of tap into and yeah, very exciting.
Kelly Rigg (46:28.813)
Mmm.
Kelly Rigg (46:35.662)
Yes, very exciting indeed. Okay, so I am going to say good night to you all now, or good morning, whatever time of day it is for you as you're listening to this. Thank you for your patience at this coming a day late technical glitches on our first attempt at recording it, which was very frustrating. hopefully our second attempt has been just as good and you guys can enjoy it. So we'll speak to you again next week. Bye guys.
Ashley Vanerio (46:44.32)
Mm-hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (46:59.433)
Bye.
